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US$ GETTING DESTROYED!!! (71.31)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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What should we change the title of this thread to?

The US$ ain't worth sh!T?
12
No votes
Bend Over Ben's T-Paper?
6
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Parity with peso or bust?
8
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So much for saving...US$ cratering hard?
4
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Amero...coming to a theatre near you...?
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The US$ defaults on global debts...?
6
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Nothing - leave the thread name alone - Rocc Roccs!!!
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Other
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Total votes : 76

Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby roccman » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 13:31:04

Image
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 14:01:02

In other news, the Fourth Amendment no longer applies to seizures during routine traffic stops in which the driver is carrying large sums of cash. (emph mine)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Man gets I-5 speeding ticket, loses a quarter-million dollars

By Seattle Times staff

Here's the cash, seized from a visiting Canadian who had a hard time explaining how he got it.

Driving 11 miles over the speed limit cost one driver more than a quarter-million dollars this weekend — at least for now.

A State Patrol trooper spotted a Honda Accord speeding southbound on Interstate 5 on Friday, according to State Patrol spokesman Jeff Merrill. It was raining, and the driver was cruising down the freeway at 71 mph. So the trooper pulled the driver over, Merrill said.

The 35-year-old from British Columbia, who had a valid driver's license, struggled to tell the trooper where he was going and how long he had been in Washington, prompting the trooper to search his car, Merrill said.

The trooper found two suitcases in the trunk — one filled with $276,640 in cash. The driver claimed he won the stacks of dollar bills at 23 casinos in Washington, California and Nevada, but he was unable to produce any receipts, according to Merrill.

The money was confiscated as the State Patrol investigates the incident. Merrill said if it is determined the man obtained the money legally it will be returned to him.

Seattle Post-Intelligencer


Hyperinflation will ensure more seizures like this happen - "But, but I was going to buy a loaf of bread, officer..."
Another reason to keep your money in the banks... :twisted:
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Petrodollar » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 14:33:46

Tyler_JC wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m sorry, I just don't see the logic.


That's because you don't view the world in a purely binary, ideologically rigid/radical viewpoint. Bush does, and Cheney might as well - its the Manichean paradox - and there is no room for logic in the fundamentalist/Manichean paradigm.

I just finished reading the best book on this subject, A Tragic Legacy, and in it the author makes a convincing case that Bush's "Good vs Evil" Manichean worldview is the primary driving force behind all his decisions - a dangerous worldview that is easily manipulated by his neoconservative/Likudite handlers - which bares no resemblence to objective reality, facts, or logic. The author accurately illustrates how Bush sees Iran as pure "Evil," and with that over arching viewpoint, "lunatic" Cheney might be able to goad Bush into the war on this basis alone, arguing that he is fighting for pure "Good" and on the side of God.

Image

Amazon.com
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ush's rise and fall are most evident in the 2002 election, which brought him control of both houses of Congress, and the 2006 election, which reversed that triumph. The president's chosen Manichean worldview and his rigid refusal to consider other viewpoints have resulted in a disastrous administration and damage the nation will be living with for generations, according to Greenwald (How Would a Patriot Act? 2006). Greenwald begins by documenting Bush's political collapse and then explores the core beliefs that have driven Bush's decision making, as well as the broader philosophical and political dangers of such strong convictions. He details how the president's absolutist moralistic worldview, the simple identification of good and evil, overshadowed decisions that required more nuanced views in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Advisors with other points of view were ignored as Bush's strong ends-justify-the-means approach resulted in such decidedly un-American practices as indefinite detentions, use of torture, and preemptive war. This is a compelling examination of how moral beliefs can drive political decisions, with disastrous consequences.


...Indeed, if one carefully examines all the evidence, it is clear that Bush's decisions are not based on logic, and thus a potential war with Iran and its disasterous effects are not evaluated from a logical framework - rather - the world is viewed from a fundamentalist Manichean paradigm. I highly recommend this book, and it even briefly discusses Peak Oil (see the "book review" section on this site for my earlier post on this topic)
Last edited by Petrodollar on Wed 26 Sep 2007, 16:57:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 15:42:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Petrodollar', '[')b]Tyler_JC wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m sorry, I just don't see the logic.


That's because you don't view the world in a purely binary, ideologically rigid/radical viewpoint. Bush does, and Cheney might as well - its the Manaichean paradox - and there is no room for logic in the fundamentalist/Manichean paradigm.

I just finished reading the best book on this subject, A Tragic Legacy, and in it the author makes a convincing case that Bush's "Good vs Evil" Manichean worldview is the primary driving force behind all his decisions - a dangerous worldview that is easily manipulated by his neoconservative/Likudite handlers - which bares no resemblence to objective reality, facts, or logic. The author accurately illustrates how Bush sees Iran as pure "Evil," and with that over arching viewpoint, "lunatic" Cheney might be able to goad Bush into the war on this basis alone, arguing that he is fighting for pure "Good" and on the side of God.


Does Bush even have time to start a new war? He's already facing tremendous political pressure for the current wars, another war would lead to calls for impeachment.

Congress would have to pass another resolution authorizing the president to pursue military force against Iran.

And regardless, our declining economic fortunes (as a result of that war) would prohibit us from continuing the war for any reasonable length of time.

The dollar would collapse to below $2/Euro and economic recession would quickly follow. Tax revenue would collapse and we would be forced to massively cut spending to balance the budget (which we would have to do because no one would be buying our debt).

There are so many massive and supremely logical reasons that preclude an invasion of Iran.

Bush is NOT a lunatic. He's misguided and perhaps overly optimistic but he is NOT a lunatic.

Before the Iraq War, no one was talking about the potential for defeat.

And yet with this hypothetical Iran conflict, I hear plenty of people saying its a bad idea. Governments can't move against the desires of their own people without suffering the consequences...

Image

Even if Bush does attack Iran, somehow, the positive effect on his poll ratings wouldn't even push him past the 50% mark!

As the US military began experiencing heavy casualties, support for the president would collapse. Hillary Clinton would win all 50 states...

Bush is a politician, not a dictator. He doesn't want to hand over the 2008 election to the opposing party. It would ensure Democratic control of the country for decades. (Much like the failed presidency of Jimmy Carter ensured Conservative control of the country from then till...now?)
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Petrodollar » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 17:18:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')efore the Iraq War, no one was talking about the potential for defeat.


Correction: no one was talking about the potential for a US military defeat.

However, the State Department and CIA compiled extensive warnings that the post-invasion/post-Saddam period could ,and probably would be a disaster, given the lack of post-war planning. Bush and Cheney, with their Manichean worldview, discount facts and evidence that conflict with their preconceived notions, and they know that the US Air Force is capable of bombing Iran, and that's what matters. Here's some historical context:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB163/index.htm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]State Department experts warned CENTCOM
before Iraq war about lack of plans for
post-war Iraq security

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 163

Washington, D.C., August 17, 2005: Newly declassified State Department documents show that government experts warned the U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) in early 2003 about "serious planning gaps for post-conflict public security and humanitarian assistance," well before Operation Iraqi Freedom began.

In a February 7, 2003, memo to Under Secretary of State Paula Dobriansky, three senior Department officials noted CENTCOM's "focus on its primary military objectives and its reluctance to take on 'policing' roles," but warned that "a failure to address short-term public security and humanitarian assistance concerns could result in serious human rights abuses which would undermine an otherwise successful military campaign, and our reputation internationally." The memo adds "We have raised these issues with top CENTCOM officials."


...and the serious pre-war warnings of the politcal problems and lack of planning for the post-invasion management also came from the CIA. For example:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20051013/index.htm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]White House Ignored CIA Warnings on Iraq

Postwar Projections "had little or no impact on policy deliberations"
Declassified Kerr Report Available on National Security Archive Website

Washington, D.C., October 13, 2005 - The White House disregarded intelligence projections on post-Saddam Iraq according to a newly-declassified CIA report, "Intelligence and Analysis on Iraq: Issues for the Intelligence Community," posted today on the website of the National Security Archive.

"In an ironic twist," the report finds, "the policy community was receptive to technical intelligence (the weapons program), where the analysis was wrong, but apparently paid little attention to intelligence on cultural and political issues (post-Saddam Iraq), where the analysis was right."


...Years later, Bush and Cheney still aren't listening to all the experts in the US'govt, not last year's highly publicized the Baker-Hamilton report, not our (remaining) allies, not the American voters, not anyone - except the neocon warwongers. There are lots of warings against US military operations re Iran, but that has not stopped the Bush/Cheney administration from putting nearly half of the US Navy off the coast of Iran.

Tyler_JC wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ush is NOT a lunatic. He's misguided and perhaps overly optimistic but he is NOT a lunatic.


....Well, if we manage to avoid going to war with Iran over the next 15 months, then I might agree with you. Until Jan 2009, I'll withhold judgement. In the meantime, here's an article from Greenwald that explains some important issues at play:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/bookclub/20 ... _with_iran

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Moving forward with Iran
(excerpt)

As I argue in my book, I think the question of what the Bush administration will do concerning Iran is the gravest and most pressing one we face as we endure the final 18 months of this presidency. Along those lines, I want to underscore one key point that emerged from this week's discussion.

***

When factions within the Bush administration escalated their efforts to inject into our political discourse the possibility of a war with Iran, the original focus was on the alleged threat posed by Iran's nuclear program. But the war-inflaming rhetoric has shifted palpably, so that war-with-Iran proponents now tout as their principal "justification" the "proxy war" theory -- that Iran is aggressively waging war on the U.S. in various Middle Eastern spots, including most prominently via lethal attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. Thus, this argument goes, we are already at war with Iran (because they are waging war on us) and the only question is whether we will fight back or surrender.

The reason for this shift in rhetorical focus is pernicious. Those who seek war with Iran realize that they would almost certainly be unable to effectuate an Iraq-style propaganda campaign to persuade Americans to support a new Middle East war, this time against a larger and more powerful country. And particularly with a Democratic-controlled Congress, it is very difficult (though admittedly not impossible) to envision the Congress ever voting to authorize the use of military force against Iran. For that reason, Bill Kristol, back in August of last year (according to Seth's paper), was urging the administration to seek such Authorization against Iran before the midterm elections, fearful that if the GOP lost control of the Congress, the opportunity would forever be lost.

But a military attack on Iran "justified" by Iranian attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq, rather than by the unrelated-to-Iraq "threat" of Iran's nuclear program, would not require any new Congressional authorization, so the administration and its followers would argue. Under this scenario, such an attack would be but a part of the already-authorized war in Iraq, merely a means of defending U.S. troops engaged in that Congressionally-authorized military action. Thus, this reasoning goes, the President already has all the authority he needs to order such an attack on Iran, and there would be no need to persuade anyone of anything in order to commence it.

There is, even among Bush critics, some degree of skepticism about concerns that the administration intends a military confrontation with Iran. There appears to be a sense either that the idea is too extreme and self-evidently disastrous even for this administration to pursue (even though the last six years have made conclusively clear that there is no such thing), or that such a confrontation is impossible because the public and the Congress would never agree to it.

But such agreement may be entirely unnecessary. If it is cast as a reaction to an Iranian "proxy war" in Iraq, there is little question that the White House would take the position that it needs no authorization to launch some type of attack against Iran. And if Cheney-ite factions prevail and the President takes that position, it is difficult to imagine what would prevent such an attack from occurring.

..Again, if you read Greenwald's book, you'll begin to understand that we are not dealing with rational, logical leaders in the White House, but binary, unwavering ideologues who cling to a desperate and dangerous Manichean world view - which is a fundamentalist-like perspective of a "black and white" world.
Last edited by Petrodollar on Wed 26 Sep 2007, 17:46:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby roccman » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 17:44:11

Here is some more "saneness" Tyler coming from our current administration...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')enate passes Kyl-Lieberman measure on Iran
Posted September 26th, 2007 at 2:18 pm

Yesterday, the Senate was poised to vote on a non-binding resolution, sponsored by Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), to get the chamber on record supporting some aggressive language towards Iran. The measure was, as Josh Marshall described it, a building block towards an eventual military confrontation with Tehran, following the same pattern established by neocons on Iraq (as per the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act).

In the 11th hour, the Lieberman-Kyl measure was pulled, so that proponents could give the language a little touch-up. It came back today, and passed fairly easily.

The Kyl-Lieberman Iran amendment — which ratchets up the confrontation with Iran by calling for the designation of its armed forces a terrorist organization responsible for killing U.S. troops — just passed overwhelmingly, 76-22.


How is it possible for anyone to doubt the lunacy of our government unless you live in a cave.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/ar ... 13015.html
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Petrodollar » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 17:52:21

...another fyi article about why the dollar is falling...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Weak dollar central to oil price boom
Wed Sep 26, 2007

MARKET NEWS
By Jane Merriman - Analysis

LONDON (Reuters) - The weak dollar's leading role in oil's ascent to record highs is partly due to a tide of financial flows into commodity investments but also reflects a shift in the greenback's relationship with crude.

The dollar has traditionally influenced the price of oil and other commodities, including gold and base metals, which are mostly priced in the currency and usually move to compensate for changes in the its value.

So the steep fall in the dollar to record lows against the euro, for example, has helped drive oil to a record of $83.90 a barrel, reached on September 20.

"I'm certainly in the camp of dollar weakness driving crude strength," said Anatol Feygin, head of global commodity strategy at Bank of America.

"With growing OECD inventories, revised lower demand, increased OPEC production and a relatively mild hurricane season, the dollar seems to be much more the issue."

That, analysts say, is because one aspect of its longstanding relationship with oil is changing.

In the past, dollars earned by oil producers flowed into U.S. dollar assets or investments.

The Gulf countries are thought to hold around $3.5 trillion in total dollar reserves, according to Lehman Brothers research.
But investors say the proceeds from the current oil boom -- petrodollars -- have not gone to support the U.S. currency.

"The petrodollars which historically got invested back in the U.S. in dollar-denominated investments now have more options back home or in emerging markets or the euro," [/b]said Badung Tariono, who manages an energy fund for ABN AMRO.

"The relative stability of the euro and good opportunities in the rest of the world play a large part as well," he said.


...and this is yet another reasons why Iran's decision to trade oil in euros and yen is not helping the dollar's value on the FX markets. If OPEC moves towards a basket of currencies for global oil transaction in 2008, things will get rather interesting.
Last edited by Petrodollar on Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:36:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 26 Sep 2007, 20:55:04

I have a fundamentally different belief about the intentions of our political elite than Petrodollar, Roccman, ferrelgiraffe, and the rest.

Further debate, therefore, is pointless.

I will no longer challenge the Iran War Hypothesis and I will refrain from engaging in these conversations in the future.

Enjoy your War On Iran discussion.

8)
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby chuck6877 » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:21:36

The Dollar is falling to new lows. I saw it hit 78.05.
[web]http://www.weblinks247.com/indexes/idx24_usd_en_2.gif[/web]


Gold is skyrocketing because of the fall:
[web]http://www.kitconet.com/charts/metals/gold/t24_au_en_usoz_4.gif[/web]
Last edited by chuck6877 on Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:38:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby roccman » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:23:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I') have a fundamentally different belief about the intentions of our political elite than Petrodollar, Roccman, ferrelgiraffe, and the rest.

Further debate, therefore, is pointless.

I will no longer challenge the Iran War Hypothesis and I will refrain from engaging in these conversations in the future.

Enjoy your War On Iran discussion.

8)


Actually this thread Tyler is about the death of the dollar and the death of a salesman.

99.99% of the industrialized world believe as you do Tyler so I hope you do not feel alone.

It is the remaining contrarians that see things as they truely are.

Now back to the death of the US$:



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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Revi » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:31:45

Actually, I really like the posts of Petrodollar and the rest. I refrain from speculating on whether we're going to go to war with Iran, but I was wondering why the dollar was tanking so badly. It seems like the Iranians have something to do with it. It seems like with the subprime mess, and the shovelling dollars into the system and Iran selling oil in other currencies, our dollar is going to keep falling. This makes it less attractive, and more people dump it. It seems like the petrodollar pump is failing. We don't control the oil franchise any more, so therefore the basis of our currency is gone.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole mess.

I am going to go stock up on friskies.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Eli » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 09:39:59

It has less to do with Iran than it does with the actions of our own Fed.

But the fact that KSA and some other major oil nations did not lower rates in line with the Fed is contributing to the continued decline of the dollar. If the Fed keeps lowering the dollar is going to 50 cents.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby Twilight » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 13:57:03

Iran and others will go down because the US can't handle a world in which it passes into history and its enemies survive. The US will not fall alone. There is probably nothing more nefarious to it than that.

That is a different discussion however.

The dollar, energy, the economy, that is the long crisis that is of more immediate concern.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 14:23:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', 'I')ran and others will go down because the US can't handle a world in which it passes into history and its enemies survive. The US will not fall alone. There is probably nothing more nefarious to it than that.

That is a different discussion however.

The dollar, energy, the economy, that is the long crisis that is of more immediate concern.


The immediate problems and ongoing difficulties seem to be directly related. The international community, though almost inextricably linked to the U.S. dollar, and bound to suffer economically themselves if the dollar suffers, has obviously decided that they will suffer even more if they help to prop it. Interesting. It's a case of shooting yourself in the foot, rather than waiting it out and dying the slow death of inflating yourself to death.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby roccman » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 17:57:03

http://www.drschoon.com/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems this summer’s credit crunch and the continuing defaults of US subprime mortgages would be enough. Now, however, the US Federal Reserve has decided to play chicken with inflation. But evidently, even this is not too much.

This fall, providence is bringing yet another dish of trouble to an already over laden table—China may actually prove good on its threat to dump $1.33 trillion of US Treasuries and start the long awaited flight from the US dollar.
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby roccman » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 22:18:44

Something is going down...

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DX&v=w

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')... Watching two crosses in the FX markets right now - BOTH Eur/USD and JPY/USD just went parabolic with the dollar weakening BIGTIME against both.

The move is NOT SMALL. I was watching it just in time to short dollars against both - I have no idea how far this rabbit hole goes, and I see nothing on the wire indicating any sort of actionable news, but the Yen has lost 30 pips in about 5 minutes and the Euro has risen by 20.

Market Ticker - KD
"There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
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Re: US$ DROPPING LIKE A ROCK!!!(NEW ALL TIME LOW 78.195)

Unread postby threadbear » Thu 27 Sep 2007, 23:30:28

Yup. I'm watching the gold chart. In the last hour gold has gone up about 5.00 American!
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