[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'L')et's recall that no suburban lot (and certainly no city lot) is large enough to provide even most of the calorie requirements for those who reside there, though.

[MarkJ]

Many people in my region think 1 acre lots are a little too small. Most suburban building lots I've sold are 1-1/2 acres plus.

Since most suburban and rural homes are built on farmland, the lots are large, and the quality of the soil is generally quite good. There's plenty of water in the suburban and rural areas as well.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', 'M')any people in my region think 1 acre lots are a little too small. Most suburban building lots I've sold are 1-1/2 acres plus.

Since most suburban and rural homes are built on farmland, the lots are large, and the quality of the soil is generally quite good. There's plenty of water in the suburban and rural areas as well.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'B')ut your vision is incomplete.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')What I am against is this delusional fantasy that we can all live in 2,000 sq ft single family homes (with a front and back yard) and all be within 10 minute walking distance to a train station. THAT is what I am against.

[dohboi]

Cube and mos are both right. There will be a major contraction of suburbia, but that will include contraction of many suburbs back into the semi-rural towns they were not too long ago.

Also remember that in many recent suburban developments, all that nice farmable soil had been scraped off so the buildings didn't have to cope with the unpredictability of the "organics." Sure, soil can be shipped back in or developed from scratch, but both take time. And of course the skills to garden successfully and preserve some of your harvest for winter months is not instantaneous.

Just to say, it will be a rough adjustment (at least) for many raised to expect instant everything.

Not to sound too technofantastic, but does anyone else see the return of the blimp as a possible replacement for other forms of air travel and for some trucking?

The problem with predicting what year we will go back to as far as living standards is that, on the one hand we know a lot more about what makes people sick...which probably won't all go away right away. On the other hand, we have degraded many life support systems that were more robust in the past. We cannot, for example, expect to turn to the sea any time soon for major sources of protein or other resources any time soon. So we are likely to be better off in some respects but much worse off in others. Long term, well, let's just say I am not optimistic.

(PS, cube has put me on his ignore list, so if some wants to copy this it may allay any paranoia he may have that I am slamming him behind his back.)

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'W')hat will cars run on?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '2')) A high population density 25,000/sq mi arrangement would solve our transportation problems. Electrified Rail transit starts to make financial sense in such an environment.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'W')hat will cars run on?

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'I')f each person, living in a city with a population density of 3500/square mile, ate a pound of food per day, you would need to supply your stores with 24,500 pounds of food per week, assuming each store served a one-square mile area. An 80,000 pound truck carrying 50,000 pounds could supply four of those stores by making two trips per week. With your system, how many smaller trucks are you going to use? How much fuel do you expect to save?

[dohboi]

I agree with cube that gardening, especially gardening that can reliably support a family, is a lot harder than it looks. But most people can do some raising of food.

Not all that long ago, into the '50's I believe, most people significantly supplemented their diets with gardens, up to about 40% of their caloric intake if memory serves (I'll see if I can track down the source).

The tragedy is that most of that hands-on, local knowledge has disappeared and continues to disappear as those who were directly involved die off.

I don't know if everyone will need to have a garden in the future, but probably at least half the population will need to be able to source much of their food very, very locally, one way or the other.

[cube]

I'm not a fan of "commuter rail". aka (park and ride lot) - public transit.

cons:
1) you still NEED a car
2) it's not cheap. about $200 / month to ride the train
3) it's even more expensive than carpooling
pros:
1) less wear and tear on car.
2) a short range EV car (drive to the park and ride lot) becomes possible
3) it is cheaper then solo driving

the cube scenario:
I think in the near term commuter rail will become very popular.
However once the ultimate endpoint of PO is reached, the economy will have contracted so much that society simply will NOT be commuting "long distances" everyday.
In a PO world I don't think J6P will afford $200/month to ride the train.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'A')lso semi-trailers can be piggy-backed on rail cars, if appropriate for the cargo.

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')'m not a fan of "commuter rail". aka (park and ride lot) - public transit.
cons:
1) you still NEED a car
2) it's not cheap. about $200 / month to ride the train
3) it's even more expensive than carpooling
pros:
1) less wear and tear on car.
2) a short range EV car (drive to the park and ride lot) becomes possible
3) it is cheaper then solo driving
the cube scenario:
I think in the near term commuter rail will become very popular.
However once the ultimate endpoint of PO is reached, the economy will have contracted so much that society simply will NOT be commuting "long distances" everyday.
In a PO world I don't think J6P will afford $200/month to ride the train.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'I')f each person, living in a city with a population density of 3500/square mile, ate a pound of food per day, you would need to supply your stores with 24,500 pounds of food per week, assuming each store served a one-square mile area. An 80,000 pound truck carrying 50,000 pounds could supply four of those stores by making two trips per week. With your system, how many smaller trucks are you going to use? How much fuel do you expect to save?

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'I') often refer to this graphic when talking about freight rail. It illustrates the total amount of railways that are double-tracked and, thus, free-flowing.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')and *if* this does not work?

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')once the ultimate endpoint of PO is reached, the economy will have contracted so much that society simply will NOT be commuting "long distances" everyday.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'O')ne should be able to get a monthly pass for much less than $200, in most cities. On the other hand Rapid Transit isn't. Carpooling at least cuts costs, and is probably faster. I think many people like the IDEA of mass transit, as long as they themselves don't have to use it.

[the48thronin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'T')his is the angle that needs to be exploited.
I often refer to this graphic when talking about freight rail. It illustrates the total amount of railways that are double-tracked and, thus, free-flowing.



The disparity between modes is well illustrated here, with interstate highways having a patron in the state and federal governments and railroads being wholly privately funded, maintained, expanded and operated, with little federal help outside of their initial grant of operating ROWs.