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Streetcars - the true end of suburbia begins

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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 14:04:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'H')owever I do NOT think there is some inherent rule that says this must be the case.

Idealism such as that is not very useful to people's decisionmaking in the real world of today.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'W')e only need to look at cities in other countries.

Why does the "royal WE" enter into the picture? Now we're veering into preaching a prescription for society. I'm with you in theory, but how does that get to a reality?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he reason why so many cities in the USA is messed up, is because of "white flight". Any place (city or suburb) would quickly become a ghetto if the middle class packed up their bags and left.

It's a free country. It's nobody's obligation for certain groups to stay living anywhere in order to prop up the local economy for the other groups, whether it be the city, or the suburbs. If you want to stay living somewhere and everyone else leaves, it's now YOUR responsibility to keep it from turning into a sh*thole.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 14:25:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ace it folks there hasn't been too many "Albert Einsteins" that came from of south of the border.


But their music!
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby cube » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 14:41:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ace it folks there hasn't been too many "Albert Einsteins" that came from of south of the border.
But their music!
Brazil - next world superpower always will be, always has been

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he reason why so many cities in the USA is messed up, is because of "white flight". Any place (city or suburb) would quickly become a ghetto if the middle class packed up their bags and left.
It's a free country. It's nobody's obligation for certain groups to stay living anywhere in order to prop up the local economy for the other groups, whether it be the city, or the suburbs.
Whoever said it was?
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby vision-master » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 14:49:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ace it folks there hasn't been too many "Albert Einsteins" that came from of south of the border.
But their music!
Brazil - next world superpower always will be, always has been

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he reason why so many cities in the USA is messed up, is because of "white flight". Any place (city or suburb) would quickly become a ghetto if the middle class packed up their bags and left.
It's a free country. It's nobody's obligation for certain groups to stay living anywhere in order to prop up the local economy for the other groups, whether it be the city, or the suburbs.
Whoever said it was?
Samba :cool:
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 14:54:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ':')-) Interesting list: a. is a ruling and involves no money so that cant be considerd a subsidy.

Lost opportunity most definitely carries a monetary cost.

Downzoning a property to SF-3 eliminates much of the opportunity to build more densely, or with a richer mix of uses (both of which generate a higher return on investment). Zoning of a property establishes a de facto covenant on that property that forever stunts the maximum perceived value of that property.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'b'). The middle class in America wanted to own its own home so government responded to the peoples desires. And now that initially discriminatory policy is over the good or evil of these programs are spread evenly over inner city ,suburban and rural housing.

First off, to be quite blunt, I want a pony, and I want the government's help in buying one. Will you support my 'desire' using the power of government? Who are you to deny my wishes, and, after all, who doesn't want a pony?

Seriously, though, fifty years of successful lobbying and marketing of a housing product does not necessarily mean that the outcome represents peoples' "desires," whatever nebulous concept that such a term holds for many.

It does represent a business interest that the government has no place sponsoring to begin with.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'c').The tax deduction for morgage interest is a subsidy but is to and for the bankers. You still have to pay the interest and without it the market rates for loans would be that much lower.

It is not extended to those who rent at all, in any form; therefore, it makes pretending it doesn't exist a moot point.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'd').You have the cart before the horse here. People loving and insisting on using cars the government had to insist on off street parking to keep the streets from being hopelessly clogged with parked cars.

It is still an onerous requirement, requiring property owners to pay for parking whether or not it is actually called for.

The cost is passed onto us, whether we are drivers or not, in the form of higher overhead, which translates into higher prices. With retail sales in some areas approaching $400/sq ft per year, the cost of a parking space represents $80,000 in lost space and opportunity per year for the tenant.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'e').This is a good point and I know of valid examples of it but these things are voted on locally so voters must see some personal benifit in most cases. Also a municiple bond issue would not extend to expences in a suburb beyond the city limits so the effect you aledge of the city dweller paying the bills of the sububanite just isnt there.
Most of the cities here extend well out into the countryside. The "core" of the city is often just one small area out of dozens of square miles in the jurisdiction of the city. Therefore, the bond package certainly represents money spent in expanding infrastructure, rather than resizing existing infrastructure for more cost-effective density.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'f').Eminent domain was used to build both the rail system and the interstate system but to say that its use was liberal is to streach the facts. Any point to point facility becomes hostage to Grandma that wont sell the farm or shister insiders buying up land to make a buck. Of course if its your land they want it seems pretty liberal. The money spent on the big dig in Boston to avoid "Taking a single house" is proof of the folly or not using eminent domain in a carefully considered way.
The rail system condemned land that, at the time, and, in the eyes of the federal government, had no owner. Building the railroads did not displace hundreds of thousands of people in the name of progress, environmental duress and damage done to the natives notwithstanding.

The interstate system most definitely condemned well-developed and, often, minority neighborhoods, where a pattern of small business and widespread homeownership was very common. This was done with malevolence, representing an era that was not so displaced from Jim Crow laws and outright discrimination by today's standards.
Apples to oranges, really.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'g').Your way off base here. The more you drive the more gas you use and the more money there is to build and maintain the roads.Instead of income tax subsidising the roads as some have put forth above the highway fund is regularly being raided to pay for such things as bicycle paths, wetland preserves, court administration, state police budgets, environmental research ,side walks and flower beds.
Dedicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fuel tax is no exception, ensuring that we will continue to build and expand highways until there is no more oil to fuel the cars that drive on them. Depending on what you think the outcome is from that fallout, it will prove to be far too late to actually consider using that tax for some other, higher purpose like alternative energy or more effective mass transit.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'Y')our first point about the zoning is of interest. Post peak suburbanites may want to repeal or drastically restructure their zoneing rules to allow some of the mcmansions to be converted to office space, stores and workshops so that the residents in the other houses on the cul-de-sac can walk to work.
Zoning laws will fall by the wayside, as enforcing them becomes detrimental to cities' budgets, and we will probably see much ad-hoc development in the suburbs, which could mean good things in the long-term.
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby Javaman » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 19:44:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')edicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fuel tax is no exception, ensuring that we will continue to build and expand highways until there is no more oil to fuel the cars that drive on them. Depending on what you think the outcome is from that fallout, it will prove to be far too late to actually consider using that tax for some other, higher purpose like alternative energy or more effective mass transit.

Here's an interesting link about BTU per passenger mile: link

A gallon of of gas has about 125000 BTU so a 30 mpg car with solo driver uses <4200 BTU per passenger mile. Carpooling with another person cuts that in half, making that configuration more efficient than all those systems except Boston's buses. (?)

It seems you can build all the rail transit you want and still not really make a dent in fuel consumption. Not to mention that rapid rail cost somewhere around $100 million per mile. That must mean a great deal of fuel is being used in its construction - when is the break-even point? Is there one?

On the other hand, carpooling yields instant benefits, while preserving at least some flexibility and utility.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 22:48:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')edicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fuel tax is no exception, ensuring that we will continue to build and expand highways until there is no more oil to fuel the cars that drive on them. Depending on what you think the outcome is from that fallout, it will prove to be far too late to actually consider using that tax for some other, higher purpose like alternative energy or more effective mass transit.

Here's an interesting link about BTU per passenger mile: link
A gallon of of gas has about 125000 BTU so a 30 mpg car with solo driver uses <4200 BTU per passenger mile. Carpooling with another person cuts that in half, making that configuration more efficient than all those systems except Boston's buses. (?) It seems you can build all the rail transit you want and still not really make a dent in fuel consumption. Not to mention that rapid rail cost somewhere around $100 million per mile. That must mean a great deal of fuel is being used in its construction - when is the break-even point? Is there one? On the other hand, carpooling yields instant benefits, while preserving at least some flexibility and utility.

On the gripping hand, just because current methods of railroad construction are fossil fuel intensive does not mean future methods need to be, there is no reason most of that work could not be done with electrified equipment run off of wind/geothermal/fission power.
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 22 Aug 2008, 23:48:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')edicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fuel tax is no exception, ensuring that we will continue to build and expand highways until there is no more oil to fuel the cars that drive on them. Depending on what you think the outcome is from that fallout, it will prove to be far too late to actually consider using that tax for some other, higher purpose like alternative energy or more effective mass transit.
Here's an interesting link about BTU per passenger mile: link A gallon of of gas has about 125000 BTU so a 30 mpg car with solo driver uses <4200 BTU per passenger mile. Carpooling with another person cuts that in half, making that configuration more efficient than all those systems except Boston's buses. (?) It seems you can build all the rail transit you want and still not really make a dent in fuel consumption. Not to mention that rapid rail cost somewhere around $100 million per mile. That must mean a great deal of fuel is being used in its construction - when is the break-even point? Is there one? On the other hand, carpooling yields instant benefits, while preserving at least some flexibility and utility.

Spurious methodology, stemming from an apples-to-elephants comparison. The numbers machinated for rail transit include the line losses and the efficiency losses occuring at the power plant that powers the system, demonstrating a holistic view of the system.

Meanwhile, vehicle BTUs are simply derived by the fuel input alone, conveniently ignoring the multiple losses that occur in the production, refining and distribution stages of petroleum.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LightRailNow', 'N')eeded: Equitable comparison: The problem with the Data Book methodology (as hinted above) is that the authors imply that it is valid to compare electrical energy produced at a distant power plant with diesel, gasoline, or natural gas fuel in the tank of a motor vehicle – a clear apples-to-oranges comparison, and not accepted as the basis of comparison except for a relatively tiny circle of electric rail transit opponents who have not problem blithely ignoring this fundamental logical error. Throughout the rest of the world, researchers tend to use the 3,412 BTU/kw-hr figure (or 3,415 or another value very close to this) because they realize they're comparing the propulsion "fuel" (electricity or petroleum or whatever) at the point where it's used.
One cannot take the diesel fuel in the fuel tank, ignore all the energy it took to get it there, and then compare that energy content with the energy way back at a power plant, hydroelectric dam, or wherever. Undoubtedly, that need for equivalency is probably why the rest of the world prefers end-user energy usage as the basis of comparison, and accepts the 3,412-3,415 conversion values.

some light reading on the subject
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby Javaman » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 02:02:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', 'S')purious methodology, stemming from an apples-to-elephants comparison. The numbers machinated for rail transit include the line losses and the efficiency losses occuring at the power plant that powers the system, demonstrating a holistic view of the system.
Meanwhile, vehicle BTUs are simply derived by the fuel input alone, conveniently ignoring the multiple losses that occur in the production, refining and distribution stages of petroleum.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LightRailNow', 'N')eeded: Equitable comparison: The problem with the Data Book methodology (as hinted above) is that the authors imply that it is valid to compare electrical energy produced at a distant power plant with diesel, gasoline, or natural gas fuel in the tank of a motor vehicle – a clear apples-to-oranges comparison, and not accepted as the basis of comparison except for a relatively tiny circle of electric rail transit opponents who have not problem blithely ignoring this fundamental logical error. Throughout the rest of the world, researchers tend to use the 3,412 BTU/kw-hr figure (or 3,415 or another value very close to this) because they realize they're comparing the propulsion "fuel" (electricity or petroleum or whatever) at the point where it's used.
One cannot take the diesel fuel in the fuel tank, ignore all the energy it took to get it there, and then compare that energy content with the energy way back at a power plant, hydroelectric dam, or wherever. Undoubtedly, that need for equivalency is probably why the rest of the world prefers end-user energy usage as the basis of comparison, and accepts the 3,412-3,415 conversion values.
some light reading on the subject

The fuel used by the power plant had to be transported there as well, and the power plant capacity for the train had to be built. The electricity generated could have been used for something other than the train, or perhaps not generated at all. High construction costs of tracks, stations, viaducts and tunnels imply high use of energy. These high costs mean a severe shortage of track, leading to the need for park-ride lots and feeder buses, since these expensive tracks can serve only a small area directly. A bus needs at least 10 passengers to compete with a 40 mpg car, but on average the bus has fewer than that, and of course a diesel bus uses fuel produced and distributed in much the same way as gas for the car. The trains are more efficient if full, but during off-peak hours they run with light passenger loads and are not efficient.

So a commuter might drive 5-10 miles to a rail station, "abandon" his perfectly good high MPG car for the rest of the day, ride the train a few miles to the stop closest to his destination, then very likely need to take a bus to continue his journey. He will have to pay a fare for the privilege of using these few miles of track, as will anyone traveling with him.

If you happen to live and work close to a rail line, congratulations, you won the lottery. Those who must live and work elsewhere are subsidizing your ride, since for them it's almost always cheaper and faster to simply drive, yet they are still paying taxes to build and support a system that saves them no time, no money and very little fuel. (Did you ever find out the actual, real-world mileage of an FM330 truck carrying 20,000 pounds of payload?)
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby cube » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 03:03:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '.')..
b. The middle class in America wanted to own its own home so government responded to the peoples desires.
...
A equals A
A subsidy is still a subsidy regardless of how wildly popular it is.
//
vtsnowedin I believe you have gone past the point of simply asking a question.
You're just trying to edge someone on to a pointless discussion that you already know the answer to.
I think it is ridiculously obvious that even YOU see this as a subsidy too.
The US government's subsidization of suburbia is a naked display of Tyranny of the majority.
My discussion with you regarding this subject matter is over.

good bye
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby cube » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 03:20:08

to: Javaman

Lets get straight to the point.
Are you trying to say we're going to be driving an average of 15,000 miles / year post peak?
Because that's the average right now in America.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 06:40:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '{')text deleted-excessive quoting-FL}
Dedicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fact that they passed the tax means that they have analyised it and determined that it will meet their goal.
Zoning laws will fall by the wayside, as enforcing them becomes detrimental to cities' budgets, and we will probably see much ad-hoc development in the suburbs, which could mean good things in the long-term.

As much as I dislike zoning laws they have been proven to increase property values which is the intent of the developers that institute them. A purchaser can buy his dream home knowing that a pig farm or smelter can not spring up next door next week. He pays the full cost of this value when HE signs on the dotted line.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 07:02:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '.').. b. The middle class in America wanted to own its own home so government responded to the peoples desires. ...

A equals A A subsidy is still a subsidy regardless of how wildly popular it is.
vtsnowedin I believe you have gone past the point of simply asking a question. You're just trying to edge someone on to a pointless discussion that you already know the answer to.
I think it is ridiculously obvious that even [b]YOU see this as a subsidy too.[/b]The US government's subsidization of suburbia is a naked display of Tyranny of the majority. My discussion with you regarding this subject matter is over. good bye

I don't think you think very well. You certainly have little insight into my thinking.
As bad an idea as the monoculture housing suburb is I do not think they are the creation of some evil empire or that they are being subsidised by rural of urban taxpayers. The full cost of the suburbs and the roads that serve them are paid by the residents. There may be exceptions to this, politics being what it is, but not many. Between purchase price, impact fees, property taxes, gas taxes and wear and tear on their minivans they pay through the nose.
When you compare to the subsidy for corn ethonal, a direct payment from our taxes to a manufactorer for every gallon of a product that dose us more harm than good, there is nothing about suburbs and there funding that we should worry over.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby cube » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 09:45:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '[')url=http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_lrt_2007-08a.htm]some light reading on the subject[/url]
I tend to have issues with the Light rail cult. They do raise good points once in awhile and technically they do not lie. but.... I've noticed that Light rail advocates have a bad habit of being very selective with the numbers they choose to publish.
*delicate cough* Luckily there's people like me on the internet to dig up sh!t that others wish would remain buried. :-D

For example a common statistic that gets thrown around is that a single light rail track can carry the equivalent of 8 lanes of freeway traffic.
That is technically true.
however.... There's a big difference between: passenger capacity vs. passenger volume.
Translation: how many passengers could be transported vs. how many people actually take the damn train
Having said that NO light rail system in the USA, not even the busiest, carries even the equivalent of a single lane of traffic on a busy freeway.

Ridership per mile per average weekday:
Boston light rail = 9,550
a busy freeway lane = 20,000
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby Javaman » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 10:20:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'T')he reason why so many cities in the USA is messed up, is because of "white flight". Any place (city or suburb) would quickly become a ghetto if the middle class packed up their bags and left.
It's a free country. It's nobody's obligation for certain groups to stay living anywhere in order to prop up the local economy for the other groups, whether it be the city, or the suburbs. If you want to stay living somewhere and everyone else leaves, it's now YOUR responsibility to keep it from turning into a sh*thole.

Excellent point!
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby MarkJ » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 10:27:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'A')s much as I dislike zoning laws they have been proven to increase property values which is the intent of the developers that institute them. A purchaser can buy his dream home knowing that a pig farm or smelter can not spring up next door next week. He pays the full cost of this value when HE signs on the dotted line.

It's a double edged sword for me. It prevents me from building hundreds of homes on one tract of my land, but it also keeps property and home values high.

Our zoning laws, deed restrictions, forever wild zones, health/safety/blight codes and code enforcement have kept our property values and the quality of life high. Blighted properties, small homes, homes on small lots, mobile homes, mobile home parks, *some* manufactured homes, higher density developments, multi-family homes, apartment buildings etc can really destroy neighborhood home and land values. Many regions of the country with high density suburban developments often have a glut of unsold homes which lowers property values as well.

These zoning laws and deed restrictions also prevent developers from using large tracts of undeveloped acreage, farmland and wooded land for high density developments.

With so many people that want to move out of the cities, much of our open land, farmland, wooded land and lakefront property would be destroyed if suburban and rural homes were plentiful or affordable for the masses of city residents and apartment dwellers.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby Javaman » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 10:39:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')edicating a tax to a particular purpose prevents a critical analysis of whether that purpose is an effective one, or one with achievable goals in the long-term. The fuel tax is no exception, ensuring that we will continue to build and expand highways until there is no more oil to fuel the cars that drive on them. Depending on what you think the outcome is from that fallout, it will prove to be far too late to actually consider using that tax for some other, higher purpose like alternative energy or more effective mass transit.

Here's an interesting link about BTU per passenger mile: link
A gallon of of gas has about 125000 BTU so a 30 mpg car with solo driver uses <4200 BTU per passenger mile. Carpooling with another person cuts that in half, making that configuration more efficient than all those systems except Boston's buses. (?) It seems you can build all the rail transit you want and still not really make a dent in fuel consumption. Not to mention that rapid rail cost somewhere around $100 million per mile. That must mean a great deal of fuel is being used in its construction - when is the break-even point? Is there one? On the other hand, carpooling yields instant benefits, while preserving at least some flexibility and utility.

On the gripping hand, just because current methods of railroad construction are fossil fuel intensive does not mean future methods need to be, there is no reason most of that work could not be done with electrified equipment run off of wind/geothermal/fission power.


It isn't a question of whether these expensive rapid rail lines can be built with alternative energy, it's whether it's really worth building them at all.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby shortonoil » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 11:50:24

vtsnowedin wrote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s much as I dislike zoning laws they have been proven to increase property values which is the intent of the developers that institute them. A purchaser can buy his dream home knowing that a pig farm or smelter can not spring up next door next week. He pays the full cost of this value when HE signs on the dotted line.


What vtsnowedin is referring to is know as Act 250. It was first proposed to prevent building on the state’s mountain tops. Unfortunately, it was greatly expanded and did little for the native Vermonter. Outside of a few areas in the North East Kingdom they are presently all but extinct.

Vermont soon became an enclave for people from the cities, (live in rural Vermont, and all of that junk) and the Natives soon found they had been priced out of their own state. Land values skyrocketed and the state had to initiate massive social welfare programs to assist its once very independent citizens.

The irony of the situation is that the new wealthy immigrants to the state, immediately set out to convert the state into what they were supposedly trying to escape. Busy highways, crime, drugs and high taxes.

The pity is that Vermont, even as late as the early 1970’s, had the capacity to become almost totally self-sufficient. Tom Carr built the Burlington Wood fired plant in 1974, which supplied power to the city of Burlington and the surrounding region. As Tom had laid out Vermont had enough small hydro to have powered the entire state. With its small independent farms, and independent people, Vermont could have ridden out the PO crisis in relative comfort.

Green Mountain Power and CVPS worked very hard to ensure that it would not happen. In 1976 they finished demolishing the Carver’s Falls hydo site in Far Haven, VT. It had powered most of southern Rutland County with dirt cheap power. Vermont Yankee was their goal, and Tom and his concept of low cost, home produced power was not going to stand in their way. It didn’t.

Much of Vermont is now primarily an aging Yuppie land of NYC escapees. Like the rest of the nation, it has drunk deep from the progress jug of KoolAid. It will be no haven for the dramatic decline that is on the horizon.
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 11:55:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MarkJ', 'T')hese zoning laws and deed restrictions also prevent developers from using large tracts of undeveloped acreage, farmland and wooded land for high density developments.

They are doing a really bad job of it, then. Where do you think the exurbs came from?

Here is an example of a recent controversy: link
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Re: The true end of suburbia begins

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 23 Aug 2008, 12:00:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '
')Much of Vermont is now primarily an aging Yuppie land of NYC escapees. Like the rest of the nation, it has drunk deep from the progress jug of KoolAid. It will be no haven for the dramatic decline that is on the horizon.


That's a rather sweeping genearlization. The state still has a very small population, like 1/10th that of MA.
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