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The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Thu 06 Jan 2011, 23:07:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheDude', 'D')eutsch Bank pointed out in a study last month that global petroleum demand growth for 2010 was the strongest in 30 years. They conclude that spare capacity will very likely be eroded in a few years. Their forecast for the decade is a plateau tempered by demand, with a very gradual decline starting mid-decade.


Interesting. They also mention that US inventories are finally falling out of record highs, and they seem to predicate alot of their spare capacity argument on continued high demand growth. Interesting that at the end of the age of oil these guys are cranking up BAU for all its worth.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Thu 06 Jan 2011, 23:09:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bratticus', 'H')as anyone told Janaia that the movement's failed?


She can't run on down to the corner convenience store, order up a tanker truck of high octane gasoline to combust as she desires, and figure it out for herself?
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 00:37:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I')t pretty much tears Hubbert's methodology to pieces

The central idea of Peak Oil is that production will peak and go into decline at about half URR.

That doesn't depend on "Hubbert's methodology".

The answer to thuja's question is "NO".
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 01:02:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I')t pretty much tears Hubbert's methodology to pieces

The central idea of Peak Oil is that production will peak and go into decline at about half URR.

That doesn't depend on "Hubbert's methodology".


True...but thats because Hubbert's methodology doesn't work. Read the book. There are examples.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 01:35:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I')t pretty much tears Hubbert's methodology to pieces

The central idea of Peak Oil is that production will peak and go into decline at about half URR.

That doesn't depend on "Hubbert's methodology".

True...but thats because Hubbert's methodology doesn't work. Read the book. There are examples.

Oh, please. Everyone get out a pencil and paper and draw plausible curves. Of course you can draw extreme curves with multiple peaks and you can make the curve unsymmetrical by assuming very slow or fast depletion. But anything that looks real-world will be pretty much the Peak Oil picture.

You don't need "Hubbert's methodology" to conclude that.

Nit-picking about "Hubbert's methodology" is just a straw-man ploy. Is that all he has?
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 09:02:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')That doesn't depend on "Hubbert's methodology".

True...but thats because Hubbert's methodology doesn't work. Read the book. There are examples.

Oh, please. Everyone get out a pencil and paper and draw plausible curves. Of course you can draw extreme curves with multiple peaks and you can make the curve unsymmetrical by assuming very slow or fast depletion. But anything that looks real-world will be pretty much the Peak Oil picture.


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$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')You don't need "Hubbert's methodology" to conclude that.
Nit-picking about "Hubbert's methodology" is just a straw-man ploy. Is that all he has?


When it doesn't work, it isn't called "nit picking".
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby dsula » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 09:51:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 's')tatistical analysis done by Cavallo in 2004

Can you please be so kind and summarize Cavallo's findings?

I'm wondering what a curve looks like according to Caballo that starts at 0, goes up, goes down to 0 and gets sufficiently low-pass filtered (averaged)? Is it not of bell-type shape? Is it a curve that climbs forever?
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 12:45:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '
')You don't need "Hubbert's methodology" to conclude that.
Nit-picking about "Hubbert's methodology" is just a straw-man ploy. Is that all he has?


When it doesn't work, it isn't called "nit picking".


You have a problem with logic. You seem to think that if you find a flaw in a proof you have disproved the theorem.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 13:53:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')I am against eyewash and am for positive real action.


Thank you for the clarification. Too often in peak oil threads there is an emphasis only on negativity and no endorsement of any action whatsoever. However doomy one may be, you kinda have to support something even if it will fail in the end.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 15:03:25

From Oil Panic and the Global Crisis: Predictions & Myths, p.31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]From the USGS Assessment to 2009
Of course, since 1996, the amounts of reserves, production, and discoveries have changed. First, the USGS did not include in its assessment unconventional oil resources, yet in 2003, Canada’s oil sands were recognized by Oil and Gas Journal (the industry standard) as bona fide reserves of 175 billion barrels. To keep the accounting straight, therefore, one must add 175 billion barrels to the USGS Assessment total, increasing the endowment to 3.2 trillion barrels (3.5 trillion barrels if NGLs are included). Second, reserves have been estimated to be 50 percent higher than in the global Assessment made for 1996. This difference in reserve estimates results from the USGS not including in their reserve estimates any oil from locations that they did not study in detail and omitting unconventional oil resources, as mentioned above.

Thus, some of the oil that the USGS allocated to the “ reserve growth ” and “ discovery ” categories has been identified and deemed profitable such that it became 2009 “reserves". Third, cumulative production through 2008 was just over one trillion barrels. That is, about one-third rather than one-quarter of the estimated global oil endowment now has been consumed.

Lumping together reserve growth and new discoveries, the snapshot of world oil resources at the beginning of 2009 is shown in Figure 2.7 . About one-third of the estimated oil endowment has been consumed, much less than one-half remains as reserves, and only one-quarter remains to be “ found ” through reserve growth or new discoveries.

Image

If we assume that the oil endowment is a firm number around 3.2 trillion barrels, what does this mean in terms of global depletion? As an extremely rough and simplistic approach, one could estimate when the remaining oil would be consumed based on an assumed rate of consumption. Because about one-third of the oil endowment already has been consumed, about 2.2 trillion barrels remain. According to the EIA, world oil production was approximately 27 billion barrels in 2008. At that rate of production, which is not a readily justifiable measure of future production, the remaining 2.2 trillion barrels would be depleted in just over 80 years (2.2 trillion barrels divided by 27 billion barrels per year). Including NGLs in the calculation extends that time-frame by another 12 years, giving a total of 92 years.

Under the assumed oil endowment and production values above, it took about 100 years to deplete the first third of the global oil endowment, and it might take less than 100 years to use the remaining two-thirds. If the average future worldwide production rate were double that of 2008, then depletion of a 2.2 trillion barrel remaining endowment would occur in about 40 to 45 years.


The Chinese and Indians can build a whole shitload of 3rd and 4th generation nuclear facilities in 40 years - without all of the political headaches and high expense of doing so in the US.

I expect that doomers on the board will say that the USGS is full of shit. But the broad public has no reason to think so. Yeah, I guess the "peak oil community" has failed to convince the the public that ASPO is more credible than the USGS.
Last edited by Carlhole on Fri 07 Jan 2011, 15:22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby ian807 » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 15:22:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')e have to electrify and solarize the transport system, re-arrange our food/nutrient connections and replace suburban/industrial sprawl with an compact agrarian community-based society. That would take time. Years. Which we don't have. Sad. :cry:

Yeah, that's the point deniers seem to miss. Electrical power and petroleum power aren't fungible. Our battery technology is too primitive. A gallon of gasoline has a huge amount of energy compared to the same amount of battery mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density).

Liquid petroleum fuels just aren't easily replaceable. We will replace them, of course, but it will be an expensive, difficult, lengthy change. I wouldn't bet on everybody surviving it once it gets started. The main problem at first will be money, but assuming this is trivial is a mistake. An economy sufficiently suppressed by high oil prices can result in supply chain disruptions that are semi-permanent, even with considerable oil left in the ground.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:26:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')I expect that doomers on the board will say that the USGS is full of shit. But the broad public has no reason to think so.


Peer reviewed science exists for a reason. The USGS has been doing it since before everyone on this website was born. They still do. Objections exist not because of the quality of their work, but when position advocates don't like their answers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
') Yeah, I guess the "peak oil community" has failed to convince the the public that ASPO is more credible than the USGS.


Their are two possibilities as to the "quality" of the ASPO. One is that they simply make things up because they can't sell their angle otherwise. If they used real information, they couldn't claim all the ridiculous conclusions that they do. The other is that they are just incompetent when it comes to understanding both what the USGS has written in their text, or their probabilistic answers, are afraid to admit it, and this leads them to say things which are patently untrue.

In neither case does it establish ANY credibility for their particular advocacy position.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:27:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')And oh yeah. USGS WPA 2000 is not "full of shit." It is simply wrong.


In a way, true. Their numbers were too conservative.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:31:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'F')olks at the Oil Drum applied Defreyes's "linearization" (a simplified version of Hubbert's complicated calculus) to production histories of dozens of declining oil fields and regions to judge the accuracy of the method in predicting peak. More than 50% of the Oil Drum oil-field linearizations was dead on.


It should be noted by those who actually wish to see what translates to "spot on" for some people is the following TOD article demolishing the HL method. Note how the implication is not "spot on", but does the thing EVER work, as in, it never seems to, but "let's give it the benefit of a doubt and try again on something easy". The answer appears to be, no, it doesn't. It can't even predict a known and theoretically perfect example because it just...doesn't...work.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2389
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:40:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', 's')tatistical analysis done by Cavallo in 2004

Can you please be so kind and summarize Cavallo's findings?



Of course. There is no statistically valid difference in a Hubbertian projection whether he had used 200 billion barrels as his URR, or 600. In other words....the line you draw through the data is independent of the URR. Hubbert said it was completely dependent. One means that the line you draw through the production data is valid, the other means it is completely random.

It should be noted that this analysis was done on the US data, the only area where Hubbert's method had even appeared to marginally work.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:44:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '
')When it doesn't work, it isn't called "nit picking".


You have a problem with logic. You seem to think that if you find a flaw in a proof you have disproved the theorem.


2+2 does not equal 5. This is not a flaw with logic, but math. See Cavallo (2004) for why.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 20:22:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Xenophobe', '.')..It can't even predict a known and theoretically perfect example because it just...doesn't...work.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2389


The Oil Drum criticism is correct. You have to reliably estimate the URR beforehand to get Hubbert's method to even look like it might work. Hey, wait a sec... that's what the HL purports to predict - the URR!

Also, the linearization does not consider reserve growth, application of new technology, economic factors, or the impact of geopolitics on production. The assumption that oil production and consumption follows a supply-driven bell-shaped curve has been continually proven wrong.

From Oil Panic and the Global Crisis: Predictions & Myths, p.93

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy should the global oil production trajectory correspond to a bell-shaped distribution? There is no particularly compelling reason for the rise to mirror the decline in production. Oil production curves for individual well fields do tend to show rapid production that peaks and then tails off with time. However, even when production curves show a decline, they do not generally exhibit the nice symmetry of a logistic curve. For entire nations, continents, or the world, a symmetric bell-shaped production curve is not expected. On a global basis, only 8 of 51 non - OPEC nations ’ production curves follow a bell curve. 12

As noted by USGS scientist Ronald Charpentier:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ymmetry of the production curve is a very strong assumption. The assumption that addition of production curves leads to a symmetrical bell-shaped curve requires that the curves be added randomly in time. Production history curves are not added randomly in time, but rather new plays must be added to the future part of the curve, skewing the curve.


Image

Hubbert had to continually revise upwards his estimate of global URR in order to get his forecast curves to fit the production history curve. The linearization derives from the basic assumption that oil depletion can be accurately described by a bell-shaped curve. So, of course, the HL is going to be wrong also.
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Re: The End of The End: How the Peak Oil Movement Failed

Unread postby Xenophobe » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 20:30:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')Hubbert had to continually revise upwards his estimate of global URR in order to get his forecast curves to fit the production history curve. The linearization derives from the basic assumption that oil depletion can be accurately described by a bell-shaped curve. So, of course, the HL is going to be wrong also.


And has been. Which really was Rapier's point, he couldn't even get it to work with a theoretically perfect example without it being wrong...if I recall correctly, always low? I wonder who would ever want to use a method which they know in advance always fails on the low side?

Gee...I wonder? 8O
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