[Seadragon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peakoil_Tarzan', '
')Unbeknownst to most Americans, the US has, for some time, been a net protein importer and recently, we became a net food importer (I think this refers to total tonnage imported). I agree -- we should be able to raise more than enough for US tables, but the fact is that currently, we apparently are not.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peakoil_Tarzan', ' ')One thing you Mid-westerners have that the Eastern US does not, are a lot of deep, glacial-dust (loess) derived soils that are moderate in pH and high in essential plant nutrients. I can forsee a situation in which a parcel that was farmed for many years might actually "improve" with a little soil erosion as the old, "dead-skin" was peeled away (not that I'm promoting soil erosion).

I did some reading in my grad-student days on soil erosion in the Southeastern US and the worst soil erosion occurred there in the period between 1860 - 1920. At that point, conservation of agricultural lands became an issue and agencies such as the Soil Conservation Service were established to try to promote good conservation practices. So, I have no problem believing that, at least from a soil erosion and fertility standpoint, we are better off today than we were a century ago.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day From Pheba, from the farm:
My husband and I had such a good plan worked out. We are going to phase out using synthetic nitrogen fertilizer on our farm.
Nitrogen utilizes natural gas to manufacture. In the last ten years nitrogen fertilizer has more than doubled in cost.
Our plan was to switch to potash and phosphate.
We have a 160 acre cow/calf operation, and in Missouri the grass is mostly K31 Fescue.
Fescue is a tough grass that spreads by underground runners. The down side of fescue is that it carries an endophyte fungus that causes health and reproductive problems in cattle and horses.
The grass is great in late fall, when everything else is dying down. Fescue has the highest sugar content in late late fall. So the grass has some good points.
We also have some legumes, some clover, lespedeza, etc. mixed in with the fescue.
Our plan was to apply potash and phosphate to feed the legumes, and not apply nitrogen to hold the fescue back so the legume type plants could prosper ahead of the fescue.
We just learned that the cost of potash has gone through the roof.
From what I have been able to learn, China has been purchasing increased amounts of potash from Canada.
Most potash comes from Canada.
This information makes me wonder how this type of behavior will translate into other aspects of Peak Oil.
Apparently synthetic nitrogen fertilizer is becoming more expensive globally. So, globally, more and more agriculture is turning to alternatives.
Can I assume that this means that all alternatives will become more and more expensive, and less available.
I believe this event is a major red flag and more important than most people realize.
I would appreciate information, feedback and opinions from others on this issue.
I am puzzled and concerned about this information.
My husband has not decided what we will do this year as far as our fertilizer needs are concerned.
I will post when I find out.
Pheba.

{moved by Shannymara}

[Pops]

I think the answer is management intensive grazing. There are a bunch of cost sharing programs in MO to help get set-up. You need to go to one of the three day grazing schools to qualify. Ask your rep or PM me your area and I’ll tell you where and when the closest one is – I just got the schedule.

P & K don’t evaporate from manure like N does and the animals use very little – returning almost all in the manure. If you can take care of most of the N with legumes and use high stocking rate and frequent rotation to get a good dispersal of manure all you may need to worry about are trace minerals. With a good rotation you can get one pie per square yard in less than 2 years as opposed to the same coverage in a conventional pasture taking a dozen or more.

There is a post on this subject over here if anyone is interested:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic14556.html

[Jellric]

This may sound strange to you, but may I suggest vermicomposting? (Composting with worms). Worms condition the soil perfectly and are pretty much self-regulating after the initial setup. They do the lions share of the work themselves and the compost they produce beats any man-made fertilizer.

Take a look at the following picture:


Chinese spinach seedlings grown with (from left) chemical fertilizer, powdered horse manure, vermicompost, and nothing.

Here are some resources if you would like to learn more:
Note: You mentioned your farm is 160 acres. The farm described below is also 160 acres.

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_librar ... _farm.html

http://journeytoforever.org/compost_worm.html

[RonMN]

Along with composting with worms...what about planting alfalfa? I've heard it will grow anywhere & renews the soil. It wont due for all your feeding needs but it could be part of the sollution.

[capslock]

Instead of muriate of potash, try checking out the price of old-fashioned granite dust or greensand.

Also, I like the idea of moving toward mixed-plant pastures to keep availabile nutrients from getting out of balance. Problem with mixed pastures is that the cattle's favorite plants always get eaten away first!

One of my books lists plants with high potash content -- meaning that although they may be heavy potash feeders, they also can be good at extracting existing potash from the soil, cycling potash more usable to other plants out with the cowpies:

Vetch
alfalfa
cowpea
red clover
bluegrass
millet
buckweat

So, throwing some annuals (and alfalfa & bluegrass) into pastures might eventually boost the overall potash content once they've been grazed and pooped out. I know that cattle would love grazing on most of the above plants (before going to seed) as part of their diet.

Also, I think it is best to assess soil fertility each season to get a more total awareness of the ups and downs of fertility in your particular district. Not that I don't think you already are doing that!

[pedalling_faster]

potash is created when stuff burns, isn't it ?

potassium - eggshells are one source. obviously, you would need a lot of eggshells. maybe you could work something out with one of those places that puts eggs in cartons.

other sources of phosphate - bones.

how about spreading a few bushels of bread croutons over the land ? birds will come & rest & leave behind lots of little phosphate-filled gifts.

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day from Pheba, from the farm:

My husband spent half of the day spreading fertilizer on Saturday. We did not purchase any nitrogen, only potash and phosphate. The fertilizers are necessary to increase the yield and the nutrient content of the hay we harvest.
The high nutrient content of the hay is a vital part of a cow/calf operation. The high yield and nutrition content are just not possible without the fertilizers.

Hubby has the ag dept. test the soil on a regular basis so we know what we need. This land has been farmed heavily for decades and is played out. There are a lot of farms in Missouri in the same shape.

We have raised alfalfa in the past. Alfalfa is a crop requiring a lot of energy to grow and harvest. Alfalfa must be cut and baled several times per season, and according to my husband the plant requires a regular spraying of chemicals (petroleum based) to prevent a fungus that attacks the plant.

My husband is planning to do two fields with absolutely no fertilizers at all just to see how the decreased yield balances against the cost of the fertilizers. This could be interesting.

We also have an old (ancient) manure spreader, and we spread the manure in the fields.

By the way, last year synthetic granular nitrogen fertilizer was 40 cents per pound. This year it is 49 cents per pound. When we were married in 1996, the price was 26 cents a pound.

The other methods that were mentioned are just not viable for us at this time. One interesting farm I have just read about is Polyface farm.
Total animal/plant integration, and self supporting. A super ideal, and it is working on Polyface farm.
For more information read the book "Omnivore's Dilemna". A super cool book about farming and nature. I can't put it down.
Later,
Pheba

[Pops]

You know more about your operation than I do certainly but since you asked for input:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'T')he fertilizers are necessary to increase the yield and the nutrient content of the hay we harvest.

[Jellric]

Phebagirl, did you follow the links I gave you and look at the picture I posted?

That farm using vermiculture is exactly the same acreage as yours with a similar setup. I don't see anything "unviable" about it personally, but good luck anyhow!

Just remember, if you keep trying the same old thing you will get the same old results.

[Pops]

Just thought I’d whip this stiff nag one more time

Again, I’m not picking on you at all Pheba, I have no idea of your situation, this is an off-topic rant about people in general.

But I do want to jump off on something you said
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', 'T')he other methods that were mentioned are just not viable for us at this time.

[Jellric]

You know what they say, Pops.

You can lead a horse to water..

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jellric', 'Y')ou know what they say, Pops.

You can lead a horse to water..

[bulletproof]

Hey Pops

You could also give Azomite a try.

In terms of putting the trace minerals back onto the soil, it's great.

I always wanted to experiment with getting a semi-load of sawdust from one of the local sawmills and spraying it with watered down ammonium nitrate and lime, and then later injecting the pile with manure tea to provide the microbes... and see how well it composted.

I suspect that it would work well.

Many sawmills will give away the sawdust, lime and AN are cheap (for now) but good compost is expensive. It would require a tractor with front loader to turn the compost and something like a manure spreader to spread the stuff on the fields, but a continuous production operation could be implemented (a semi-load every 2 weeks?) that would refresh several hundred acres within a couple of years. The constant application of organic matter to the soil would also build the water retention and keep the fields going through dry spells.

A soil-building program combined with intensive rotational grazing would be significantly boost beef production rate, and thus boost profits.

[Pops]

Thanks for the suggestion BP, I hadn’t heard of that before, Here is a chemical analysis.

And Hereis application stuff.

The price looks like close to $100 an acre though – ouch!

Interestingly, its listed as an anti-caking agent at up to 2% in animal feed. Though my calves eat mostly grass I do feed them each about a pound a day – cost maybe $20 a head by the time I sell them and probably doesn’t add much weight but it forces me to eyeball them daily. Aside from catching illness or injury before it gets out of hand it keeps them use to me being around and that makes working them easier – they follow me around like pups.

Anyway my point is a bag of Azomite mixed in a ton of feed would eventually make its way to the pasture – a long time to get 500# per acre though!

--
I used to do graphics works for the largest egg producer in the western US and one of their sidelines was making compost from almond hulls and chicken manure. They had the proportions (C/N) down to a science, and a great big custom-built (I assume) pile turner they pulled with a big cat. They had that stuff lined up in quarter mile rows – must have been a half a section worth!

When I was in my twenties we lived next door to an empty lot that was just about dead as dirt could get. I hauled pick up loads of sawdust from a cabinet shop and sprayed it with a concoction of dish soap, ammonia and miracle grow in a hose-end sprayer and ran the tiller over it to get what bugs there were from the soil – worked great.

Made a nice garden, no telling how much crap I put in the ground from the particleboard and plywood glue though - no wonder I grew such big beans!

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

{Pheba has been very enlightening as to the consequences of hydrocarbon depletion/price increases and how it is affecting "life on the farm". Straight from the horses mouth reality.}

Good day from Pheba, from the farm:

Every spring we fertilize our 160 acre farm with synthetic nitrogen, potash and phosphate fertilizers.
We run a cow/calf operation. We keep mother cows on pasture, breed them and sell their calves. A cow/calf operation lives and breathes on the pasture.
A farmer with a cow/calf operation that truly understand his job will probably say that he is a grass farmer.
Grass is the bread and butter of the business.
The fertilizers are necessary because the soil is totally played out from years of crop farming.
This year we were not able to purchase any synthetic nitrogen granular fertilizer. The price of the fertilizer has gone from 26 cents per granular pound to over 50 cents per granular pound.
We just could not afford to do nitrogen.
So, we just did potash and phosphate. For some reason phosphate fertilizer is also skyrocketing.
We spent $2,900.00 to put down potash and phosphate on 105 acres. We shall wait and see what this does to yield.
More later on what's happening in my little area of the world.
Pheba

[FoxV]

There are also many alternatives to nitrogen fertilizer out there (although I doubt as effective).

but perhaps now would be a good time to do some test plots of various fertilizers to see if there is a good cost effective alternative.

As prices for natural gas is not going down. Best to look for the alternative now, while you have a choice (I would suspect potash/phospate is going up because many people are probably abandoning nitrogen based fertilizers perhaps making a temporary(?) supply crunch).

[highlander]

Take a look at this link. Especially pay attention to the plant composition. There is no substitute for nitrogen, phosphorus or potassium (or any other element in a plants composition.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/land ... app1a.html

If you don't have soil, you apply fertilizer. Decades of intensive farming have turned soil into an inert growing media. It is only capable of producing crops because you apply LOTS of nitrogen.

Bite the bullet and apply nitrogen, or thin your herd. Just keep spreading the manure around and in a few years, you should start getting real soil again!

[Ludi]

Pheba, have you read Joel Salatin's books on grassfarming? He runs a successful farm in Virginia, grassfed beef, poultry,and rabbits, and to my recollection never applies fertilizer, just uses the animal manure. Anyway, if you haven't read his books, I recommend them, he has some clever ideas.