[Gogo]

In the normal course of things I would agree that agricultural subsidies should be stopped. My concern is that if a subsidy is stopped then it becomes uneconomic to continue production and the land will probably be taken out of production, or worse, converted to industrial use. In the period leading up to PO perhaps it is better to keep the land in production so it will not become overgrown or destroyed over the next few years, which would then require more labour and suddenly very precious energy to put back into production just at the time that we will really need the output.

[Zentric]

For what it's worth, MTBE, the gasoline-oxygenating additive, has the knack of escaping storage tanks and toxifying the water table, lakes, streams, etc.

Ethanol is a safe, workable replacement for MTBE. Under this scenario, a corn/ethanol subsidy might make sense. The MTBE screwup is fixed without the chemical companies admitting liability. Agribusiness makes more money. And innocents with wells in their back yard stay sick. Perfect.

[pea-jay]

This was a good article. I am particularly annoyed with the prevalence of High Fructose Corn Syrup. You just cannot escape that ingredient these days.

US agribusiness was particularly evil in getting that industrial crap corn to flood Mexican corn production. Its quite remakable that a nation that was the ancestral home of corn now is a net importer. This is doubly crappy for most people in both countries too. Poor subsistence farmers in Mexico were driven out of business and off their lands by our imports. Where did they flood? The US.

Gee thanks ADM. Thank you Monsanto. Next time you guys are looking for a new place to push your "corn", might I suggest sticking it up your...

Nevermind

[Schneider]

Gogo..please,could you watch your "Private Messages" box !?

I'm from Montreal too ...

[aahala]

The price support system in the US for argricultural products worked fairly
well for several decades, balancing out years of surplus and shortage.

Then came the inflationary pressures and the Nixon administration, fearing
a consumer revolt over increasing food prices, changed the system, to
encourage farmers to plant fence row to fence row. Over time the revised
system lead to government surpluses and something had to be done to
get rid of these surpluses -- ethanol and the growing use of crops as oils in
snack food and sweetners in soft drinks.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')orn can't be taken out of food production for fuel or the masses will get angry and riot, like in Yemen.

[pip]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', 'I') always thought that corn stoves were some weird niche-market device for farmers. Have they gone mainstream?

[BabyPeanut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a.noz_4pKMrY&refer=news_index]U.S. Farmers May Plant Less Corn, Soybeans as Energy Costs Soar (link)[/url]

Aug. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Byron Jones, a farmer near Saybrook, Illinois, said he probably will plant less corn next year because the expense of buying fertilizer for crops and fuel for tractors has risen along with energy prices.

``We're all caught on the same treadmill of increasing costs,'' said Jones, who has grown corn and soybeans on his farm about 150 miles (241 kilometers) south of Chicago since 1961.

The price of anhydrous ammonia, a nitrogen-based fertilizer made with natural gas, has climbed 20 percent from last year and 80 percent from two years ago. Natural gas has almost doubled in the past year and is near a record. Diesel fuel, used to run farm equipment, has climbed 71 percent in the past two years as crude oil has exceeded $70 a barrel in New York trading.

[shakespear1]

The farmers in Poland are being hurt so the effect is global. Someone is going to make money on this by storing and selling later.

Grain prices here are very low.

[Starvid]

Once upon a time the hydrogen needed for ammonia (fertilizer) was made not through steam reforming of natural gas, but by electrolysis of water.

This was abandoned because natural gas became cheaper, and today almost all ammonia plants use natural gas.

I wonder at what natgas price the electrolysis process becomes profitable again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

[BabyPeanut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/NitrogenPrices/Index.htm] Why Are Nitrogen Prices So High? (link)[/url]

by Eddie Funderburg

Nitrogen fertilizer prices have been high for several months now. In some cases, the price has gone up 50 percent or more, but why is it increasing? The price of nitrogen fertilizers is directly related to the price of natural gas (methane). Manufacturing 1 ton of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer requires 33,500 cubic feet of natural gas. This cost represents most of the costs associated with manufacturing anhydrous ammonia. When natural gas prices are $2.50 per thousand cubic feet, the natural gas used to manufacture 1 ton of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer costs $83.75. If the price rises to $7.00 per thousand cubic feet of natural gas, the cost of natural gas used in manufacturing that ton of anhydrous ammonia rises to $234.50, an increase to the manufacturer of $150.75.

[frankthetank]

Yup..nat gas right around 11bucks. I've noticed farmer talks about this very subject over @ agriculture.com ... seems some have started thinking about no till farming practices and letting crops sit in the field to dry (vs propane/gas/whatever they use) to dry the crops. This along with the port @ NewO being a little under the weather might make farmers let the crop sit on the ground this fall.

The pieces are all on the table...Have you noticed grain prices really haven't done much for all this negativity...?

[Ancien_Opus]

In many of the Great Plains States natural gas is also used to pump the water to irrigate the fields for corn and soybeans. Farmers are considering the switch to less intensive farming practices due to the high cost of fertilizer and fuel for irrigation.

If you happen to fly over the Platte River on the way through to Denver you'll see strings of green circular fields visible from the air through out Nebraska.

Regards,

[aahala]

I can understand higher input costs can reduce profit, but I don't
understand why the appropriate approach would be to reduce production.

If you are still making a profit at the higher input costs, less production
means even less money to help pay fixed costs. If the higher costs means
a loss, wouldn't you lose even less by not producing at all?

[Gary]

So do we need to see our urban yards and some parks as "edible landscapes"? Simmons and others make the point that we need to relocalise farming to save liquid fuels. What most of us in the lower 48 USA states grew fruit and nut trees (no, I'm really not joking) and also planted and cultivated lots of veggies in our cities.

Add in serious composting and we might have something worthwhile.

There are groups who've done a variety of successful urban food-growing, especially in poor areas. From community gardens to rooftop container gardens, we ought to be pulling out all the stops on learning to grow food wherever we are.

We don't hear anything from political leaders. It's a do-it-yourself deal, eh? Maybe the feds will have FEMA hire Halliburton to teach gardening to starving citizens after things get really bad. Another lucrative, no-bid contract. (Sorry, couldn't resist the sarcastic remark today. I'll try to behave now.)

Here in Minneapolis, MN, we just had Mayoral and City council primaries today. Set amoungst an enourmous amount of farmland, our local media rarely mention rising natural gas prices and their implications for agriculture. General Mills and other big agribusiness/food companies are worried about getting sugar which used to come up the Mississippi from NO, but even concern is kept muted. Stock up on a 7-year supply of Frosted Flakes, folks!

[CarlinsDarlin]

Gary,
Excellent ideas. I think I'll print out your post and pass it around the community. With Katrina fresh on their minds, perhaps it'll spur a few people to act.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')eneral Mills and other big agribusiness/food companies are worried about getting sugar which used to come up the Mississippi from NO, but even concern is kept muted. Stock up on a 7-year supply of Frosted Flakes, folks!

[Chaparral]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ancien_Opus', 'I')n many of the Great Plains States natural gas is also used to pump the water to irrigate the fields for corn and soybeans. Farmers are considering the switch to less intensive farming practices due to the high cost of fertilizer and fuel for irrigation.

If you happen to fly over the Platte River on the way through to Denver you'll see strings of green circular fields visible from the air through out Nebraska.

Regards,

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'O')nce upon a time the hydrogen needed for ammonia (fertilizer) was made not through steam reforming of natural gas, but by electrolysis of water.

This was abandoned because natural gas became cheaper, and today almost all ammonia plants use natural gas.

I wonder at what natgas price the electrolysis process becomes profitable again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process