[rangerone314]

Some of my references:
CORN/BEAN mix:
http://orgprints.org/4214/04/4214-Bavec ... sed-ed.pdf
Plant populations were 5.6 plants m-2 of maize and 12.0 plants m-2 of beans
Averaged over two years, maize grain yield was significantly lower in maize/climbing bean mixture (11.20 kg 10 m-2) compared to maize sown as sole crop (12.07 kg 10 m-2), (Fig.1), but mixture produced also additional 0.48 kg 10 m-2 grain yield of bean

1acre=4,046.856m2 corn/bean mix = 9,971lbs corn & 427 lbs beans; 22,662 corn plants & 48,562 bean plants
7500sqFt using this = 1699 lbs corn & 72 lbs beans, 3862 corn plants & 8277 bean plants

PURE CORN:
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/ ... acing.html
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr187/agr187.pdf
30,000 ears per acre = 200 bushels (30" spacing?) bushel = 56 lbs shelled 7500sqFt=1909lbs corn

What I'm doing is initially labor intensive (750 mounds spread out over 7,500 sqFt.... this will take 5 years to complete)

Each mound has 6 corn plants, 6 pea/climbing bean plants, 6 squash (pumpkin, zucchini, spaghetti squash)... a fairly traditional 3-sisters system.

A slight enhancement to the system adds common purslane to help prevent the mounds from eroding. Bee balm (a type of mint, but less invasive than say spearmint) and blue borage attract pollinators to the beans & squash (corn wind-pollinates). Sunflowers are for the edges of the corn fields to lure aphids away.

Also near to the corn will be the quinoa and amaranth and the okra.

100-140 bushels per acre probably realistic, so 5,600-7,840 lbs per acre, or 954-1,335 lbs for 7500sqFt, so enough for from 2 to 3 people.

[PrestonSturges]

..........plant a lot extra to allow for deer and theft

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'r')angerone314 750 * 3 sisters is quite a large family Good luck with this awesome undertaking.

I'd love to try this but we have gophers. Gophers won't bother squash plants (but you have to protect the ripening fruit with plywood sheets). I don't about corn and beans?

[TreeFarmer]

Before I reduced everything down to doing it by hand I'd invest in one of these.

http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Earthway_Ea ... eder_1001B

I've had one for years, as long as your row is halfway clean you can plant with it.

TF

[3aidlillahi]

I'm reading Omnivore's Dilemma which states that prior to hybrid seeds and fertilizers/pesticides, yields were typically 20 bushels per acre, which is similar to historical levels that Native Americans received.

Can you realistically achieve 100 bushes/acre in an permaculture setting?

[frankthetank]

I'm totally corn free. I won't eat the crap or anything fed it (as far as i know). We own land that is cropped with corn so i know what goes into it. Same with soybeans. You can keep that GMO roundup ready crap out of my life. What sucks is when we had the field in crp and it was full of birds and butterflies, bees...and then it was sprayed with roundup, tilled and then seeded... Give me a break.. I know we have to eat, but that is why veggies/fruits/nuts have to replace a lot more calories that meat right now is supplying. I'd rather the field turn into an orchard of varied fruits.

Just my rant, so don't be offended.

[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'I')'m totally corn free. I won't eat the crap or anything fed it (as far as i know). We own land that is cropped with corn so i know what goes into it. Same with soybeans. You can keep that GMO roundup ready crap out of my life. What sucks is when we had the field in crp and it was full of birds and butterflies, bees...and then it was sprayed with roundup, tilled and then seeded... Give me a break.. I know we have to eat, but that is why veggies/fruits/nuts have to replace a lot more calories that meat right now is supplying. I'd rather the field turn into an orchard of varied fruits.

[patience]

Corn is grown in massive amounts next door to me. I've had one of the garden seeders for years, and can plant an acre in about an hour and a half, after the seed bed is ready. The earlier poster is right, it wants a nice seed bed to work-no big clods.

A friend of mine is growing an improved variety of Reid's Yellow Dent this year-open pollinated stuff. It is capable of about 140 bu/acre with ideal conditions. We'll see how he comes out, using plowed down legume/grass hay and chicken manure for a boost. He's hoping for about 100 bu/acre.

The 20 bu/acre yields were on poorly managed land (most of the US in the early 1940's) and poor practices. Greatly improved knowledge of plant populations, nutrient levels, better varieties of seed, and well maintained land makes a big difference. In 1950 my Dad was getting over 100 bu/acre with early hybrid seed corn and about 200 lbs/acre of commercial fertilizer. Once he had done some crop rotations and improved the land with legume plowdowns, it went to 120 bu/acre. I don't see a problem getting 100+ bu/acre with the better OP seed and no commercial fertilizer, but that is in a 4 year corn/beans/wheat/red clover rotation. The bottom line though, is the FARM average yield is still down around 25 bu/acre.

One thing often overlooked in this discussion is the quality of the corn. The protein levels vary dramtically, with the overall tonnage of protein/acre varying much less than the tonnage of corn/acre. So, if you are eating, or feeding the corn to livestock, you come out far better with the old ways than is immediately obvious.

edit: IIRC, the protein content can vary from around 3-5% up to about 10-12%. Been a long time, though so don't depend on those numbers.

[rattleshirt]

Patience- Your numbers (yield/protein) are correct from my experience/research.

[Umber]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '.').........plant a lot extra to allow for deer and theft

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '.').........plant a lot extra to allow for deer and theft

[rangerone314]

This sound realistic:

Potatoes yield of Calories per acre (about 9.2 million) is higher than that of maize (7.5 million), rice (7.4 million), wheat (3 million), or soybean (2.8 million)

For 6 people consuming 2,300 calories per day, that is about 5 million calories per year...
for perspective...

Using such a mix as this give 5 mil:
calories/acre cal/sqFt sqFt Cal/plot

potatoes 9,200,000 209.0909091 8000 1,672,727
maize 7,500,000 170.4545455 12000 2,045,455
wheat 3,000,000 68.18181818 4000 272,727
soybean 2,800,000 63.63636364 4000 254,545
28000

calories/fruit fruit p/tree plants
fruit trees 80 80 7 44,800

cal/lb lb/bush plants
hazelnut 2848 3 30 256,320
walnuts 2800 20 5 280,000
blueberry 203 4 16 12,992
tomato 80 15 10 12,000

cal/lb lbs
pumpkins 117 700 81,900
zucchini 73 350 25,550
spaghetti squash 123 350 43,050
5,002,067

[rangerone314]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabilis_expansa

Mirabilis expansa (mauka or chago) is cultivated as a root vegetable in the Andes, at cold, windy altitudes above 2700 meters. The above-ground portion dies back with frost, but the root is quite hardy. It grows to a height of 1 meter, and bears edible tuberous roots that can reach the size of a man's forearm, with a dry weight composition of about 7% protein and 87% carbohydrate. Yield can reach 50,000 kg/ha given two years maturation time. Great interest in this root crop has been generated by its ability to be grown in conditions that do not favor other root crops.




45,640 lbs per acre?

[OutOfGas]

I did not plant corn in my garden last year. When I planted this year I used my 3 year old Ambrosia hybrid seed. Not one seed came up.

I replanted with my 2 year old Country Gentleman open polinated seed and it came up fine.

Do the old varieties have more nutrition or is this controlled by the soil ?

[patience]

Most of the older field corn varieties sampled by Organic Gardening (many years ago I read it) produced about the same total nutrients per acre as the hybrid varieties, the exception being carbs were higher per acre with the hybrids--more or less "empty calories". This makes hybrids the way to go if you are selling the crop on the basis of weight, to a grain elevator, but argues strongly for the old varieties if it is consumed on the farm. Country Gentleman yields pretty high and has a good sturdy stalk, as do several other OP varieties. Soil variations affect any variety, pretty much the same, I think, that is, if the nutrients aren't in the soil, the plant can't get them.

I don't see any benefit to growing hybrids for most home uses, and a lot of downside to them.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')his sound realistic:
Potatoes yield of Calories per acre (about 9.2 million) is higher than that of maize (7.5 million), rice (7.4 million), wheat (3 million), or soybean (2.8 million)

[rattleshirt]

[/quote]
Yep. The old rhyme from long, long ago about how many seeds to plant went something like...

One for the raven
One for the mouse
One for the beetle
And one for the house

I don't use any commercial fertilizer or pesticides and should have planted at least TWO for the beetles this year... the greedy little sods.

Umber[/quote]


The version I know is :

One for the mouse
One for the crow
One to rot
And one the grow

My results have been much better than that though.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'T')his sound realistic:
Potatoes yield of Calories per acre (about 9.2 million) is higher than that of maize (7.5 million), rice (7.4 million), wheat (3 million), or soybean (2.8 million)