[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('oowolf', 'I') walk to work. Everyone in this end of the county knows "that crazy guy that walks everywhere". Why does he walk?---that's all it takes to be labelled "crazy" in Amerika the braindead.
As for 2GD....BRING IT ON.

[Doly]

Communism is not only a form of government, it's also a different economic system. Remember that Marx's famous book was called "The capital". He was, in fact, the first person to provide a complete description of what capitalism is, and to point out some of its flaws. He was actually the first one to point out that unlimited growth is not a great idea.

Unfortunately, he spent a lot more time doing a critique of capitalism than actually thinking carefully about his proposed alternative system. When some countries turned communist, they realised that Marx hadn't really gone into much detail. Stalin filled in the details in his own way in Russia, but many think that Marx wouldn't have liked his solutions (but then, who knows what a dead man would have thought?)

[eric_b]

Getting a bit off topic here... Perhaps this should be a new topic.

This talk about gardens got me thinking.

What do you think is the minimum amount of land
it would take to feed one person for a year?

I know, there's quite a few variables here. I'm assuming
good quality soil, and a 4-5 month growing season minimum -
most places in the US and Europe would qualify.

My guess would be 1/2 to 1 acre.

I know a couple who live with (friends wife's Dad) gramps.
He gardens extensively in their tiny back lawn in town.
Despite the small size they are always giving away a lot
of food. Of course, they don't have to live off it for the year.

Grow all sorts of good stuff: corn, tomatoes, potatoes, sweet
potatoes, several different types of peppers, lettuce, onion,
garlic, cabbage, carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, sunflower seeds,
squash (inc. pumpkins), etc. etc. Not sure about protein sources
though...

Any opinions on this?

One person I talked to (who gardens) felt only 25-30 square
feet would be necessary... but I can't imagine this. You'd
be quite thin at best.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

ONe of my intensive gardening books says you can grow 400 lbs of food in four 20x5 raised beds. with (I think it was) a whole acre you can grow enough to feed 60. If the soil supports the plants there is no reason you can't do well.

One year my I got 4 tomato plants to grow 5 feet high and gave off a huge amount of tomatoes. even since then I've been hooked on garden tomatoes.

As for protien, you will find that soybeans are good. nuts contain all the amino acids in a more easily digestible form than meat, that you could ever need.

[RIPSmithianEconomics]

Ah, chickens, man's most fragile friend. Some cool facts about chickens-

1. They are actually originally jungle animals. This is why they're so vulnerable to attack. An especially aggressive gust of wind can kill a chicken.

2. Free range chicken is so much better than battery farm it's untrue. I don't even have to look at the joints anymore to tell. You can really taste the difference.

3. Chicken eggs are great but washing them and then leaving them out is a no-no. It has something to do with the protective flilm (I'm not too clued-up on egg chickens).

4. Chickens and geese get on very well.

5. Hypnotising chickens was a childhood hobby for me. I used to steal chalk from the school to use. And of course, after we rung the necks my brothers, sister and I would pluck a few feathers and play cowboys and Indians. (Although every time I tell this to friends they say "When were you born, the 1950's?").

[tmazanec1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'T')here are a number of issues that could/should/might/will make this GD worse than the last :

1) A much higher percentage of Americans were still on the farm (or had access to that lifestyle)
Got me there...I live in the suburbs.
2) Higher population, especially in the cities and places where it is virtually impossible to grow food (Las Vegas, Phoenix)
Live in Cleveland area...at least some people can grow stuff.
3) Very limited basic industrial capacity (most of it sent overseas)
Well, we do have a little left here...not like before, though.
4) Very complex, inter-related and fragile financial system (derivatives, GSE's, real estate bubble)
I stay out of debt...when I finally tried to get a credit card, had a devil of a time!
5) Very poor personal relationships (most of us never know our neighbors very well and how many could or would turn to close relatives for help)
I am moving soon. But my relatives help me greatly, and people at work are friendly. I will try to make friends at my future apartment ASAP
6) Gap between rich and poor increased greatly
I am lower middle class, I would say
7) Sense of entitlement is much much greater than any time in US history (can you imagine the MTV generation or the Boomers waiting in line for their monthly ration of cheese ?)
Yes, I can imagine it. I would not like it, but I would do it if I had to.
Very complex governmental structure (laws and taxes for everything ... how many environmental/zoning/nimby laws will you break trying to grow a garden or construct basic shelter)
Good point.
9) Most work in the US is in the service industry, very little of which is TRULY required for survival (travel agents,mortage loan officers, cashiers)
I am janitor/gofer/on-duty-when-boss-out at a group hpme. Many people there have no other family.
10) Increased WMD (ability of even small splinter groups to effect great damage, physically or psychologically - 911)
Might be less assessible in GD, though.
11) WWII allowed us to 'manufacture' our way out of the last GD (that option is gone/unnecessary with Nukes)
Did any country get out of GD without war?
12) The entire system of delivering food and energy is more complex and fragile (grocery stores keep 3 to 5 days food on hand, just-in-time delivery)
This one is scary!
13) Most of the population shuns basic skills and hard physical work (how many people know how to garden, bake, sew or repair things) When's the last time you heard of anyone walking to work ?
I do physical work at work, and hope to move within walking distance (although will still likely drive because of the gofer factor).
14) Television & the Internet. The government's heavy handed reactions to the modern day equivalents of Hoovervilles and Bonus Marchers will quickly spread fear and panic much more quickly than during the Age of Radio. On the flip side, Fear Factor, The Apprectice and the CBS nightly news will keep the multitude sedated while Rome burns.
I will admit I will give up the Internet last of all!
15) The Red/Blue schism. Not since the Civil War has the US been so divided. "A house divided cannot stand."
But we are not "segregated" like we were 1860. Even in the states it was a few % difference. I disagree with this one, I work fine with people of the other side.
16) Illegal immigration. The last time the US had such a large pool of cheap labor than presented such a political hot potato was .... slavery and the Civil War.
Will this continue post-peak?
17) Loss of arable land. Some of the most productive farm land in history is now hidden forever beneath suburban malls and office parks. When was the last time you saw an orange grove in Silicon Valley ?
Good point. Most of it is still available, though (though we will need work to get it), The post-GD society will either use less land for people because of higher technology, or fewer people for what land there is. I think the coin is still spinning.
Anyone want to add to this list ?

Can anyone come up with some reasons why a future GD might be less severe ?
It will be worse than the past one. If it is bad enough we will never recover. We still might get over it...it is too close for me to call.

[bentstrider]

You hit the nail right on the head man.
As far as I'm concerned, I have non-blood relatives from my stepfathers side that live in both the Silicon Valley and Indiana farm country.
My stepdads brother is a chemical/polymer engineer and has been with Lockheed Martin for 20 years. His engineering and chemist skills will make him an invaluable asset postpeak and GD. Not to mention he owns and is debt free on several pieces of rental property out there. He has a great deal of money, but is intellegient enough to not blow it on many luxury items.
A PC, a DVD player and TV w/satellite, but none of that "keeping up with the Joneses" shit made him get those.
My stepdads sister already has a BS in Biology and is going on to study Veterinary science. That and her husband owns a good-sized piece of arable farm and grazing land in Indiana.
Only reason it's hard for me to keep contact with them is because they be so busy tending to their duties right now. But, at least it's something that is worthwhile and highly survivable post-peak.

[ECM]

I have read that the current farming techniques used in the U.S. require about 20K square feet or 1/2 acre per person. If you are a Vegan, have a decent harvest, and know how to grow and rotate crops you can get by with about 7K square feet. I believe a vegan diet requires 2K pounds of food per year so using someone elses number of 1 pound/sq. ft. you cound feed over 20 people per acre which is 43560 sq. ft.

[oowolf]

2K pounds of root vegetables. You can lower that considerably by growing grains and nuts

[gg3]

I would be *really careful* about those "how many people you can feed from an acre" estimates. They are probably high-side estimates, and/or depend on a whole bunch of things going right, and/or high-yield production techniques etc. etc.

Then you get on the land and find your own particular soil and climate conditions are't the same as the guy who wrote that "really cool book," and you're screwed. Or you have a few good years, get complacent, and then have a bad year, and you're screwed.

Better to use low-side estimates of productivity, and as a result, low-side estimates of carrying capacity, and adjust your land and population figures accordingly.

[ECM]

Root vegetables grow in greater densities than most if not all grains. Root vegetables aren't the only things considered into the vegan diet. Most vegans would have to eat more than they do now if they don't have highly physical jobs.

In one of the articles posted it said that Californians need 1.2 acres to support their current diet. Americans eat vast amounts of meat and this requires huge amounts of land to grow feed crops. 1/2 acre per person is more than sufficient in most areas of the U.S. for a low-meat diet.

I only wish my grandomother on my dad's side of the family was alive. She knew how to preserve food and made the best fruit preserves I have ever had. My dad grew up on a farm so I may have to start asking him questions.

[nero]

Durring the early 19th century some 40% of the farms in Ireland were less than an acre. One estimate I read said that the Irish potato diet could support 6 people on an acre. But this probably included some potatoes to feed the pig who paid the rent. Anyways I think any theoretical number isn't very useful. There has to be some examples of people attempting to be totally self sufficient on a small plot of land. Does anyone have some good anecdotal evidence?

[ECM]

Some recent U.S. yields with how many 3000 calorie days provided-(expecting heavy labor)

Potatoes 35K lbs/15.9K Kg 3710 days

Corn 8K lbs/3.64K Kg 1040 days

Rice 6.6K lbs/3K Kg 3696 days

Oats 2K lbs/.9K Kg 1177 days

Tomatoes 25K lbs/11.4K Kg 792 days

I would like to note that I read 1 acre of tomatoes as above requires about 350 hours of labor using typical farming techniques and this is intensive by todays standards.

Using the above numbers with current yields and each crop getting an equal share of 1 acre with no spoilage or waste you could feed 5.7 people for 1 year. This is only an example and you would want more diversity than this.

Also, most of the food produced in the U.S. goes to feeding cows, pigs, and chickens and we get very few calories back for what we feed these animals.

[tokyo_to_motueka]

I haven't got my copy of "the Natural Way of Farming" by Masanobu Fukuoka with me right now, but I think under his system, in a temperate climate, with a mixture of grains, root vegetables, fruit and nuts, you need about a quarter of an acre per person. But I think you really need to get trees established and maybe even throw in some chickens and ducks for fertilizing/weeding/pest control to get it going properly. And since every place is unique it is trial-and-error based on CAREFUL OBSERVATION OF NATURE!

The object is to screw around with nature as little as possible.

The trouble with some of the more intensive gardening techniques is that they require external inputs of compost/organic matter, so they are not fully self-sustaining.

Another thing Fukuoka says is that as soon as you introduce meat into the diet, the amount of land needed to support a person goes up exponentially.

[Ludi]

I agree tree crops are crucial.

Biointensive grows all compost ingredients as part of the garden system, so it is self-sustaining. Biointensive uses 1000 - 3000 square feet per person for a complete vegan diet, depending on crops grown.

[ozkrenske]

Hi all,
Interesting estimates of land use for food. Here in Aus we have few areas of truly good soil and much is only marginal for horticulture. So we have a lot of grazing. I strongly suspect that given higher prices for inputs like fuel, fertilizer and pesticides etc we will actually see large areas of marginal grain production convert to higher density grazing and milking. At the moment we have quite a number (no where near the US ratio though) of feed lots where huge numbers of penned cattle are fattened rapidly on graain grown in the surrounding areas. I can easily see the grain becoming too expensive for this and the cattle allowed to graze, over similar areas that now grow the grains for the cattle.

As to soil quality and water supply we will probably require around a half an Acre to feed a person along the eastern sea board. This will obviously be impossible with the current trend to huge houses on small blocks with non existent yards. I can though see a lot of supplementation occuring in the future with ornamental replacement with vegetables. Outside of the well watered areas we will see increased high density small crop farming, using recycled water. This used to occur all the time but these fields by necessity were high cost, on very valuable land. So over the last 20 years most have been lost to horrible real estate development with less than 2 people a house on average. Criminal misplanning.

Humerous story from a house only about 2 minutes walk away from me. The new arrivals from Vietnam rented a house and asked if they could put in a garden, the landlord said yes, assuming he would get free landscaping. In two days the entire yard was converted to vegetable production. The landlord complained 6 weeks later, after a visit, but the tenants said 'you said it was Ok'. The tenants agreed to a reduced rate 5 year lease to smooth over the landlord. Personally I think he was done over by both the garden and the lease. The Vuong's swap me vegies for eggs so i'm happy. ( the landlord doesn't allow 'pets' )



Back to the land, I have mine with a number of fruit trees (6 citrus), avocado's (Hate em but they grow in large numbers and I can force myself to eat em, don't mind Guac too much), Highly productive and good keeping macadamia nuts, and I hope to put in a cashew and an apple tree soon. I also have a number of vegetable beds developing with Sweet and regular potatoes, Carrots and beans. I know tomatoes and corn grow well here but don't currently plant them. I can crop most of the year in some form. I also have a small number of chickens in a large pen (I can easily handle 20+ chooks, but have only 6, mainly for eggs and fertilizer.). I am also investigating the possibility of meat rabbits, eating leftovers and getting big quick with high reproduction, although I could go Guinea Pig instead (1 car garage sized area available for such). I can easily see myself surviving on a rabbit a week with additional protein from nuts and eggs, with a lot of vegetable suplementation and most of my fruit needs. If tshtf really badly, I will miss regular fish, but there is a possibility with that as well. I have enough space that I think a fish pond / irrigation water store may be a possibility.

This is without looking to my much larger but also much less productive and distant property (200 acres but only about 4 with any form of good soil and very unhelpful water supply). Could be good for protein supplementation through Roo, Emu and Possum from occasional expeditions, or possibly just leasing it to the grazier neighbours in exchange for occasional chunks of meat. Interestingly enough it is easy to meet your required protein load, through scavenging (sparrow and starling Pie is high labour but easy to provide for, I could at a stretch eat rat as I have done so before.) and recycling to chickens etc, without subtracting almost any land from vegetable production. The problem is that many people expect high protein 2-3 times a day rather than the 2-3 times a week that is required.

My main issue is the outstanding debt (not particularly large, less than 2/3rds of my yearly income) on the property, but I am balancing off accelerated payments with some nice long overseas holidays etc. Doing the touring and adventuring before I am unable to, due to cost. Not that I waste money while going away. I chose to save $5 US a night for 3 nights by sleeping on a beach in africa rather than go luxury. Pretty stupid really but it takes ages to really appreciate different values and exchange rates. Now I always decide to spoil myself a little occasionally, especially when I realise it will cost me so much less than it does at home.

Anyway, After my own yard I have an elderly neighbour who has a large yard he is willing to donate to my efforts and assist with if it is needed. Luckily the man remembers the depression and thinks it could happen again.

[threadbear]

With a little planning, some talent, the Hooverville of yesterday, may be transformed into the Hoovervilla of tomorrow.

[maverickdoc]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ith a little planning, some talent, the of yesterday, may be transformed into the Hoovervilla of tomorrow.

[threadbear]

Maverickdoc, You'd be amazed at what you can do with a little wax paper, cheese cloth and string!

Just razzing you. There's going to be some terrible difficulty. It's going to be a Rolling Stone correction---as in, "You don't always get what you want, you get what you need"

If there are ANY positives at all, people will be forced into real community and that's what they need.