Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Coming Peak Oil Grand Depression

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

The Coming Peak Oil Grand Depression

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 15:28:31

The Great Depression which began in late 1929 and lasted for about a decade was the worst economic downturn in U.S. history, and one which spread to virtually all of the industrialized world. The coming Grand Depression will be no less far-reaching. The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously, much like we have done over the last few years. And, like then, it was all due to wild speculation and inflated assets. In the 1920's, the U.S. came to rely upon two things in order for the economy to remain on an even keel: credit sales, and luxury spending and investment from the rich. Same thing today. Our consumer spending is not funded by an increase in income wages, but by an illusionary equity in our homes. In other words, all the inflation has gone into real estate prices. Prices have reached levels that make no sense in terms of traditional patterns and rules of thumb for valuation. A range of evidence suggests that at the market peak in September 1929, something like forty percent of stock market values were pure air: prices above fundamental values for no reason other than that a wide cross-section of investors thought that the stock market would go up because it had gone up. Now, real estate investors think the same thing of the housing market.

In particular, the FED's efforts to lower interest rates have caused an asset bubble to form around real estate. People tend to over-invest when interest rates are low and when interest rates are raised to stave off the inevitable inflation, the bubble pops. That process is under way as I write this. Throughout the years preceding the Stock Market crash of 1929, the Fed did just that. The Fed set below market interest rates and low reserve requirements that all favored easy credit. The money supply actual increased by about 60% during this time. The phrase "buying on margin" entered the American vocabulary at this time as more and more Americans over-extended themselves to take advantage of the soaring stock market. Today, it is the housing market, and to some extent the stock market again. It was in 1929 that the Fed realized that it could not sustain its current policy. When it started to raise interest rates, the whole house of cards collapsed. The FED is starting to raise interest rates now for the same reason--to cool off consumer spending/speculation and reel in the trade deficit.

One of our members, somethingtosay, suggested I "interview and learn from the people that lived and survived the great Depression of the 30's. Report back to this Web site on the wisdom they learned the hard way." Some of the following is from some old-timers I talked with recently, and the rest from interviews posted on the Internet. I will let the following quotes speak for themselves. It is a chilling account.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, everybody went on relief, and everyone raised a big garden. We raised everything from peas to potatoes and onions, and the extra vegetables we had we sold to people who didn't raise one. We lived off that garden for some time, and it was a big help. Once a month they'd give commodities out. You'd get dried beans, pound of bacon, pound of butter, dried milk, and sugar, and depending on how big your family was, was how much you got; and since we had the cow, we would trade the dried milk for coffee to people who didn't like coffee. That was supposed to last you a whole month, but that was government surplus, and they'd have a place that they dished that out; and I tell you we were so poor we had a gas stove, but we didn't even have the money to hook it up. We also had an icebox and couldn't even afford ten cents a day to put ice in it. When my son was born I'd mix his formula and put it down in the well on the rope and every time I had to feed him I would pull the rope up and get the bottle, but we had no refrigeration and everything we needed refrigerated went across the street to my mom and dad's place. When the war started in 1941, a lot of jobs were left vacant when the men left for war, so unemployment virtually disappeared after that.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')as was sparse, so when me and a group of buddies would drive down a hill, we'd turn off the car so we wouldn't waste gas.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eemed to have just enough food to eat...no leftovers...had to eat everything on our plate. Things we take for granted now, such as water and heat in our homes was something precious in the depression. All farmers had to can food for winter and they ate out of gardens in the summer on a farm, there was no money and the people had to eat from gardens
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has affected me all my life. It made a lot of people learn how to conserve.My dad could not find work so we went to live on the farm with my dad's parents. We had no money so when we needed something we had to "make do" or do without.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he city was affected more than rural areas. We always had food and wood from the farm, but city people had very little food or wood. They had to collect coal that dropped from the trains. Lived on a farm and had plenty to eat because we grew everything moved from town to live in Smithfield MO on a farm so that they could grow crops and have food to eat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')frican Americans suffered more than whites, since their jobs were often taken away from them and given to whites.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')very tear I saw my mother shed was over the lack of money. All we seemed to do was to, literally, count the pennies in the house among all of us. We fought over money almost all the time, my mother would go into a panic if she could not account for every penny. Not one cent was ever foolishly spent and not one cent ever went for anything that was not vital to life. The memory that I retain to this day (77 years old) is that of my parents crying, singularly and together, about money! I remember one dinner where my mother, myself and my brothers and sister sat down to a meal. The meal consisted of 3 boiled potatoes and one slice of white bread which we divided up amongst us. I noticed my mother was not eating and I asked her why she was not eating. She answered that she was on a diet. When I was about 50 years of age it hit me that she had not been on a diet but was giving up what there was to us!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen I talk about the essentials of life I mean just that. The list is easy to put together and here it is:
Rent, food, but no ice cream, candy, baked goods; only the essentials, electricity, gas for the stove, clothing, medicine—and that was it. We walked everywhere and I do mean everywhere. If a trip was less than 5 miles we would walk it.
There are five things that seem to be predominating in all that I have read about the Great Depression:
1) There was not one single private or public institution that was up to the task of coping with the depression.
2) The United States suffered more than any country in the world since we were the most industrialized.
3) People had to grow much of their own food in gardens.
4) There was a mass exodus to the country to live with farm relatives.
5) Money was seldom seen.

Are we headed there once again as peak oil/gas inhibits our ability to grow the economy, provide new jobs, and feed--clothe--house the new comers? Even without peak oil, this seems to be in the cards. And without an abundance of cheap energy to grow our way out of it, the forecast for the future is ominous.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sat 26 Nov 2005, 01:13:35, edited 2 times in total.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Unread postby highlander » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 15:43:15

You would think that the 1920's were not so long ago that people would forget what happened. I think the bottom line was a redistribution of wealth, back toward the elites, like previous "fourth turnings". While you state there was a "mass migration" to farms, I would disagree. The biggest impact of the depression was the loss of family farms. Banks foreclosed and those with cash were able to buy them up by the score. I think my grandfathers only real disappointment in life was when he lost his farm during that time. The words of the country song sum it up well.
The family lost the farm and moved to town, Daddy got a job with the CVA...
Hope my property sells before the balloon bursts!
This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
Highlander 2007
User avatar
highlander
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun 03 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Washington State

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 15:53:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('highlander', ' ') While you state there was a "mass migration" to farms, I would disagree. The biggest impact of the depression was the loss of family farms. Banks foreclosed and those with cash were able to buy them up by the score.


Quite so, a 1000 foreclosures a day during the worse times, but there was still an initial mass exodus out of the city to live with relatives on the farm. When the farms were lost, the people lived in Hoovervilles or rode the rails looking for work.

This massive transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich is about to happen once again.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Unread postby Zechs » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:11:41

The quiet transition of Survivalists from society to the Wilderness is about to...Well...Happen. :-D

I still say Cheese it when things start to look bad.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man. ~ Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
User avatar
Zechs
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue 08 Feb 2005, 04:00:00

May be so

Unread postby julianj » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:14:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his massive transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich is about to happen once again.


But these events have a habit of radicalising the poor and waking up the apathetic. I don't think the rich iwll be able to sit it out in their gated communities.
julianj
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 913
Joined: Thu 30 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: On one of the blades of the fan
Top

Re: May be so

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:19:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('julianj', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his massive transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich is about to happen once again.


But these events have a habit of radicalising the poor and waking up the apathetic. I don't think the rich iwll be able to sit it out in their gated communities.


Yes, and without WWII, which we were snookered into, I believe you would have seen massive social unrest in the USA. How will we pacify the masses this time?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:19:18

The world used the war to get out of the depression last time. It would be a seductive way to do so again, with the added benefit of decreaseing the population. Anyone care to guess who the target of the next world war would likely be?
User avatar
uNkNowN ElEmEnt
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Sat 04 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: perpetual state of exhaustion

Re: May be so

Unread postby maverickdoc » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:21:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('julianj', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his massive transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich is about to happen once again.


But these events have a habit of radicalising the poor and waking up the apathetic. I don't think the rich iwll be able to sit it out in their gated communities.


What happens if they repackage it and say, we are at war and people have to make sacrifices? Or they are doing it to protect freedom. Think Americans will get it?

Don’t bet on. Just look at the 2006 budget
User avatar
maverickdoc
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed 12 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:22:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'T')he world used the war to get out of the depression last time. It would be a seductive way to do so again, with the added benefit of decreaseing the population. Anyone care to guess who the target of the next world war would likely be?


Ah, the crux of the matter: But where will the energy come from to wage war? Answer: Out of the American standard of living. There is no other readily available source of energy, post-peak.

But to answer your question: China.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:32:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'I')t would be a seductive way to do so again, with the added benefit of decreaseing the population.


But it would be more effective to give everyone a car and lower the driving age. More people have died in auto crashes than all the wars combined since the Revolutionary War. 8)
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:42:03

Hey, no one says it has to make sense. Why is it they spend millions (at least here in Canada) to get people to quit smoking but make it ok to smoke pot???
User avatar
uNkNowN ElEmEnt
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Sat 04 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: perpetual state of exhaustion

Unread postby nero » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:51:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('My Gram', '
')Every morning Mamma made pancakes for breakfast. She used a starter from the batch she made the day before. No eggs were used... eggs were really only for special occasions like Easter and Christmas. (...) When it was cold Mamma would go into the shed off the kitchen and slice off pieces of pork hanging there. We always slaughtered a pig every fall and the frozen meat would hand on a hook in the shed until it was gone. She would cook it up and serve it for breakfast with pancakes and molasses. Most of the time, the men had eaten it all before we children got to the table.


My Gram grew up on the family farm, and they were relatively unaffected by the great depression yet from the above quote you can tell even the "well off" weren't eating peaches and cream.
User avatar
nero
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat 22 May 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Top

Unread postby Laurasia » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 16:53:20

Thanks for the interviews, Monte; as you mention, the Depression was a worldwide event, and these quotes reminded me of stuff I learnt from my Mum in England, about how her family fared in those times. My Mum was one of seven kids, and they lived in Hull, a big city in the North-East. My Grandad was unemployed, and my Grandma said that many nights when she went to bed she would not know how she was going to feed the family next day. Fortunately they had other relatives close by and everyone helped everybody else. Finally my Grandad managed to find work in another city, and made the trip, in advance of the rest of the family, to find a place to live and settle into the job. Unfortunately, he came down with the flu, but went to work anyway; the other fellows on the job "covered" for him, or he would have lost his job. During work-time, he lay in a shed on the worksite, tossing with fever, etc., and for two weeks or so, until he recovered, he was in danger of losing his job. He never forgot the kindness of his workmates.

My grandmother had a distant cousin who was not so fortunate. He set out one winter's day to walk across the Moors (in Yorkshire) to find farmwork. A blizzard came up, and he was never seen again. He must have frozen to death out there.

Well just a couple of Depression-Era stories from across the Pond.

Regards,

L.
User avatar
Laurasia
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Toughing it out in suburbia

Unread postby ECM » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:13:47

One of the things that have changed dramatically since the Depression is oil distribution and production. During World War 2 the United States was the largest oil producer in the world. It profited enormously from the export of oil during and after the war. Now the U.S. is in a much different situation and war will only further weaken it. War is very expensive and we just don't have the resources we had back in the 40's.

Another issue is the proportion of industry in the U.S. during WW2. No other nation was even close so we were much better prepared to ramp up to massive production. The U.S. is now losing industrial capacity while many other countries such as China are growing rapidly. The single greatest threat to the U.S. is China. China controls much of the U.S. debt and has been building up its military.

It was very much the acceleration of the industrial age based on cheap energy that got us out of the Great Depression and it will be its fall that puts us back in.

The United States tried to deprive Japan of oil before entering WW2 to cripple Japan. It also used oil to bankrupt the USSR by exerting political power, an arms race, and knowledge of Hubbert's Peak to flood the world oil market with cheap oil as USSR production was peaking. The U.S. will go bankrupt when oil gets too expensive thereby being a victim also, doubly so since the dollar's value is tied to oil.
User avatar
ECM
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed 09 Feb 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby Evltre » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:16:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Laurasia', ' ')Fortunately they had other relatives close by and everyone helped everybody else.


In discussions with older relatives, this is the predominant theme. My family lived (and some still do) in a very small coastal settlement, with very little outside input. They had gardens, fishing and everyone helped on the local farms for a share of produce and so lived very well - there was a definite sense of community.
Evltre
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu 18 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand
Top

Unread postby BW » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:17:51

The target of the next world war may be the US. You get the greatest world energy demand destruction per fatality by thinning out or eliminating the US population.
User avatar
BW
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri 19 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: WA state

Unread postby pea-jay » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:31:50

This depression is going to be different. The GD as bad as it was was not triggered by a shortage of energy. Plenty of energy was available back then, with far few uses and users of it. The US had just reached the peak of oil discovery; the rest of the world was even further back. We had an abundance of food (may have been unaffordable, but not unavailable) to feed the legions of the laid-off that would be put to work in WPA projects and later warfare. The value of the currency deflated, but remained trustworthy enough it wasn't abandoned.

Now we have reached the apparent maximums in a lot of different crucial areas such as energy availability and food production, yet are continuing to grow as if there aren't any limits. The coming depression is not going to be triggered by economic events as institutional safegards prevent against that. No, it will be triggered by fundemental limits of our environment and as long as those limits remain in place, we will never crawl out of this depression. The old tricks that got us out of the GD won't work this time. The currency will be debased beyond recognition, the governments rendered impotent, energy often unavailble. So works projects and warfare won't save us this time. We may try them and at the outset it may even work a little but as the available energy pie continues to shrink, the remaining scraps will not sustain those efforts too long.

Unless someone invents a free energy device to overcome the coming crunch, this depression will be long, permanent and never to be repeated again.
UNplanning the future...
http://unplanning.blogspot.com
User avatar
pea-jay
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1547
Joined: Sat 17 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: NorCal

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:35:34

OK now I'm seriously freaked. 8O
User avatar
uNkNowN ElEmEnt
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Sat 04 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: perpetual state of exhaustion

Unread postby Tuike » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 17:55:48

Isn't there also an option of a hyperinflation? So that interest rate would not rise and dollar would collapse? The depression doesn't sound that bad compared to hyperinflation.
User avatar
Tuike
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon 10 Jan 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Finland

Unread postby ECM » Sun 13 Feb 2005, 18:15:28

Hyperinflation is one of the methods used by Germany to devalue its currency and make it almost worthless thereby ridding itself of the great debts imposed on it after WW1. This is a method that has been used in the past by governments to get out of debt but has had dire consequences for the population as a whole. Currently the largest liabilities of the U.S. are Medicare and Social Security which are protected against inflation. These liabilities are estimated at $45 trillion for current workers. However, it is my understanding that the current administration is trying to remove this protection which would then give it free reign to make the U.S. dollar almost worthless.

Other issues of note that I have seen that vary from the past.

The U.S. debt is $7,629,245,507,947.33 as of 2-10-2003. Some of this actually is money taken from S.S. and Medicare surpluses.

The individual debt in this country is estimated at $10,000,000,000,000

Local and state governments may have up to twice the debt of the federal.

The estimates I have seen places the U.S. total debt at $30-$35 trillion or about 3 times GDP. Per capita debt therefore exceeds $100,000. In other words we owe more than we are worth.

This is much the reverse of the situation during the Great Depression.

The U.S. and much of the Western European standards of living are subsidized by the other nations of the world and after the collapse that subsidy will be gone. That means a permanent drop in living standards.
User avatar
ECM
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed 09 Feb 2005, 04:00:00

Next

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 95 guests

cron