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Doomers Don't Believe In America

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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 09:56:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '.')..we need to become more mindful about the way we use technology.
True, but do you really think that will happen within our generation? And does it make you and me more or less of belivers in America?
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Narz » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 10:05:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '.')..we need to become more mindful about the way we use technology.
True, but do you really think that will happen within our generation? And does it make you and me more or less of belivers in America?

Depends how bad it gets for our generation. As for "belief in America", I don't have much, the America that was is no longer, the America that will be is not that America that is (hopefully as much or more for better than for worse).
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 10:24:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A')s for "belief in America", I don't have much, the America that was is no longer, the America that will be is not that America that is (hopefully as much or more for better than for worse).
Now that you live in the south ... you're fixing to the get an earful whooping from Carlhole, Knight of the Realm.

p.s.: Mods, what's a "Knight of the Realm"?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Narz » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 10:41:42

I just don't think thinking in terms of nationalism is very productive at this point. It would be nice if our government respected the Constitution & Bill of Rights but I'm not betting on it that they will.

As for innovation, it's not some sort of uniquely American gift. People will, by necessity, be innovating all over the globe.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 11:04:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A')s for innovation, it's not some sort of uniquely American gift. People will, by necessity, be innovating all over the globe.
I can't claim credit for this: Yes, all over the world with the exception of Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Mayanmar...
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Narz » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 11:36:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'A')s for innovation, it's not some sort of uniquely American gift. People will, by necessity, be innovating all over the globe.
I can't claim credit for this: Yes, all over the world with the exception of Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Mayanmar...

So everyone in those nations is just going to roll over & die?

Places that get hit the hardest with favor innovators the most.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 11:46:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'P')laces that get hit the hardest with favor innovators the most.
I don't know about that. Perhaps we disagree on this point and we ought to agree that we disagree. But if places that get hit the hardest favor the most innovators, well, why doesn't Bangladesh have the most and greatest innovators per capita in the world? They sure are getting hit pretty hard, aren't they?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Narz » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 12:10:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'P')laces that get hit the hardest with favor innovators the most.
I don't know about that. Perhaps we disagree on this point and we ought to agree that we disagree. But if places that get hit the hardest favor the most innovators, well, why doesn't Bangladesh have the most and greatest innovators per capita in the world? They sure are getting hit pretty hard, aren't they?

I can certainly agree to disagree :) (& without name calling even unlike many on these forums).

I'm talking about pure survival not necessarily success, luxury or happiness.

I'm saying those who survive in Bangladesh & Ethiopia will do so because they've adapted successfully whereas Americans & Europeans may still have some sort of safety net to fall back on for the next five to ten years (or more).
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby RdSnt » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 12:24:38

I once was a great admirer of America, but it died some time ago and so did that "spirit of invention".
I'd challenge your rose-glasses view against, general obesity, whole sale bankruptcy, the highest murder and incarceration rate, war criminal administration.
I see a passive, even cowardly, general public who have turned their back on their own country, in favour of indolence and selfishness.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'S')o you don't believe in America? Doesn't anyone here believe in America?
I believe in America. Strongly. I do not believe in this recent orgy we've had over the last 20 years or os.

Probably America's most admirable cultural and historical trait has been its ability to foster incredible feats of creative innovation.

How do you reconcile Doomerism with the indomitable American spirit of invention? Seems to me that if you are a Doomer, you do not believe in America.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby idiom » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 12:41:38

Everytime a doomer says "I don't believe in America" another company goes bust.

The only way to remedy this is to clap loudly and proclaim "I DO BELIEVE IN AMERICA"
The world ends without a tragedy,Time is melting into history
The sky is falling, Voices crying out in desperation
Hear them calling, Everybody, save yourself
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 06 Oct 2008, 14:22:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')hat's why energy science and technology is so manifestly unpopular around here - because potential solutions or adaptations are deemed ignorant or "cornucopian".
You do understand that every solution, every invention, every new technology created by man brought us closer to over-population, soil depletion, ocean acidation, smog, deforestation, extinction of species, just to name a few, don't you? What's exactly THE science and technology that will really save us and make us more Americans? I know two, but they'll never ever be implemented. Please enlighten me.


On the upside of the oil production curve, America's development and investment centered on huge economic growth. The reasonable expectation was for greater and greater availability of energy and resources for use as the country grew.

However, at some point, there will be a general realization by everyone that this paridigm has forever changed. It will be at THAT time (and not before) that serious adaptation and innovation will occur.

And I think that it is mostly in dire times, when there is great unpleasantness, that innovation and adaptation is greatest. So, I do not argue for a continued path of rampant consumerism and all that. However, I recognize that whole peoples have an underlying culture - which is an important thing to recognize about peoples.

Here, in America, we have a culture, a heritage and a set of ideals about how we expect our society to operate. Despite the recent market turmoil and high energy prices, we haven't seen much departure yet from the economic growth expectations we have seen for decades. When we get further into the energy and resource challenges of the 21st century, I expect to see an American expression of dealing with our problems.

We could easily be in for some wrenching, unpleasant changes. But I disagree with the Doomers that the country will completely fall apart. Society will cope with peak oil, population, resource depletion and eco-destruction in ways wholly different than the methods we chose to follow during the growth era.

But those kinds of wrenching changes do not occur in peaceful times of economic stability. The status quo must change.

I don't see how Doomers expect that people will simply forget whole swathes of important scientific and technological understanding. The only reason that people's back in the 19th century did not employ scientific understanding was that it had not been discovered yet!

Technology is simply problem-solving. And during hard times, it will be the problem-solvers of the world that come to the fore. There is no reason that mankind cannot use knowledge and know-how to address problems of energy scarcity, resource depletion, over-population and eco-destruction. There are plenty of brilliant thinkers on these subjects who are willing to step up and recommend steps that we must take as a nation and a global society to address them.

This whole thing is generally on the world mind at the moment.
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