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Doomers Don't Believe In America

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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Snowrunner » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 12:39:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'D')oomers do not believe in America.


You should hire on at Fox News, they have similar ideals "XXXXX hate America".

But tell me, America Believer Boy, what does an America Believer believe about America? And maybe more important: How will it change the outcome?
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 13:07:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'D')oomers do not believe in America.


You should hire on at Fox News, they have similar ideals "XXXXX hate America".

But tell me, America Believer Boy, what does an America Believer believe about America? And maybe more important: How will it change the outcome?


Read over the thread! And look at the last post I made with the article about Peak Oil and Nuclear. I've been very clear.

I don't see how anyone can defend against the basic observation though: Doomers don't believe in America. They have no faith in the country's prowess in science or technology nor in the country's adaptability to altered circumstances.

If you look at what has comprised American culture, how Americans have had faith in their country through good times and bad over the past two centuries, and if you look at the kinds of things that Americans have historically been proud of about their country -- overcoming problems/opening up huge new markets through scientific innovations is WAY up there near or at the top of the list.

Doomers dismiss out-of-hand all of this American culture, pride, optimism, talent and innovation. They ridicule it. Have contempt for it. If they ever once DID believe in America, they have completely given up on the country now. Not only do they completely lack any faith in America, Doomers often talk about the complete imminent disintegration of the country.

People have called me "anti-American" for some of my political stances. But how can a Doomer call anyone "anti-american" when Doomers do not believe in America whatsoever? The country and it's culture is dead to them.

I at least believe that it is possible that the peak oil problem can be taken on by American society and dealt with intelligently. That mere possibility precludes me from the Doom community because "doom" is usually defined as an unavoidable and terminal destiny and that's the way I interpret it.

That's my main point - Doomers don't believe in America.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear your rationale.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 13:28:02

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"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby StuckInPhilly » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 13:46:09

We are the country that set up exurbs as far as the eye can see because we weren't thinking about the future (and didn't care).

We are the country that drives through the restaurant, the pharmacy and the convenience store while we proceed to get fatter and fatter.

We have no plans for a solar satellite (Japan) or nuclear (most of Europe) or a decent train system.

What about this demonstrates that we are going to do a whole lot more than sit back and repeat what was done yesterday?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Heineken » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:02:30

What is America, Carlhole?

A landscape of the past.

I truly believe that most of the good things about America have been killed or are now irreversibly poisoned. The scary thing is that when all you're left with is slogans and propaganda, that's when the rubber truncheons start swinging.

I am terrified of that next chapter.

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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:13:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'W')e are the country that set up exurbs as far as the eye can see because we weren't thinking about the future (and didn't care).

We are the country that drives through the restaurant, the pharmacy and the convenience store while we proceed to get fatter and fatter.

We have no plans for a solar satellite (Japan) or nuclear (most of Europe) or a decent train system.

What about this demonstrates that we are going to do a whole lot more than sit back and repeat what was done yesterday?


The country really only began to realize the extent and severity of the peak oil problem in a mainstream way when gas prices hit $3.50 and above. That hasn't been a very long time. the country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.

When one talks about 'belief' or 'faith' - as in "I have faith in the American people to change, adapt and innovate" - you are talking about something that hasn't happened yet and you are expressing a point of view about the likelihood of it happening.

So when I say, "Doomers do not believe in America", I'm saying that Doomers, like everyone else, cannot have perfect knowledge about how the future will unfold, nevertheless their overriding tendency is to utterly discredit the cultural confidence and pride that ordinary Americans have historically felt about their country and their ability to overcome serious challenges.

This lack of faith is so complete that Doomers typically indicate that they are merely waiting for America to crash and burn.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:30:07

It's irrelevant whether or not I "believe in America" (whatever that means). My opinion won't have any effect on what is going to happen, for good or ill.

Basically, so what? I'm not in control of what happens to the big picture.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:36:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'A')nd I don't see anything "stupid" about an article like this one: Peak Oil and Nuclear Power.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t must be noted that even without reprocessing, the radioactivity in spent fuel rods drops by 99.9% in 40 years. This is in stark contrast to the “thousands of years” screech of activists.

True but the remaining 0.1% consists of long-lived radioactives that nobody wants in their back yard for thousands of years .

Not "stupid", just blatant spin doctoring. Doesn't even identify the authour.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:40:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'N')ot "stupid", just blatant spin doctoring. Doesn't even identify the authour.

"Spent nuclear fuel is highly radioactive, and remains so for thousands of years." link
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby burtonridr » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:55:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'W')e are the country that set up exurbs as far as the eye can see because we weren't thinking about the future (and didn't care).
We are the country that drives through the restaurant, the pharmacy and the convenience store while we proceed to get fatter and fatter. We have no plans for a solar satellite (Japan) or nuclear (most of Europe) or a decent train system.
What about this demonstrates that we are going to do a whole lot more than sit back and repeat what was done yesterday?

The country really only began to realize the extent and severity of the peak oil problem in a mainstream way when gas prices hit $3.50 and above.

Thats exactly why it will be such a crash, what we have seen as of late are the first signs of a unrelenting downward spiral in oil production and not a damn thing has been done to alleviate the possible social collapse due to our own ignorance. I would think someone with 3000+ posts would have a little more intimate knowledge of the subject.

I have faith oh yes, we will get through this, however when history is written they usually fail to leave out the pain endured by those who lived through the challenging times. Or maybe they have and you have forgotten. Have you forgotten how closely our food supply is intertwined with our oil supply? Or how closely the world population followed the curve of oil production along with the up curve of food production due to oil production?

Tell me what are your hopes for replacing fertilizer? Or the mass amounts of land that have been rendered useless for farming without fertilizers?

Or how to replace the massive amounts of natural food (elk, deer, ox, fish, etc)that has been destroyed already?

Do you really think we can sustain a population of 6 billion people as things are right now? How will we provide the food? the water? the current health status?

How will thing such as relief efforts be deployed to an area devastated by a hurricane such as Ike without significant amounts of oil and energy? How about re-build? How about restore the ecosystem in the area to help support life?

Do you realize the scale of things? Do you understand just how energy intensive our society has become? Do you understand just how much energy is contained withing each gallon of oil when compared to the alternatives? These are all extremely perplexing and challenging problems that must be solved if we are to continue to sustain a population of 6 billion people world wide.

I would love to hear some ideas, I hear a lot of wishful thinking, but nothing in the line of factual data that can prove it can be done.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:55:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t's irrelevant whether or not I "believe in America" (whatever that means). My opinion won't have any effect on what is going to happen, for good or ill.


Traditionally, belief in America meant having an inherent confidence in the country's record of scientific and technological innovations, in America's capitalist idealogy, in its institutions, in the industriousness of its citizens, in the talent of its people.

This should be obvious to anyone who watches the news. I shouldn't have to keep on describing what "belief in America" is. Politicians appeal to this inherent American confidence in themselves continually. It simply means that when confronted by a very uncertain future, Americans traditionally have had a strong trust that American culture would be able to meet and overcome great difficulties .

If you look at what has comprised American culture over the past two centuries... if you look at how Americans have had faith in their country through good times and bad, and if you make a list of the kinds of things that Americans have historically been proud of -- overcoming major problems through technological innovation is WAY up there at the top of the list.

Doomers dismiss all of this traditional confidence in America completely because they are absolutely certain in their calculation that America will NOT be able to meet the challenge that Peak Oil poses. The assumption seems to be that America will simply crumble and cease to exist.

I don't know what else "Doom" would signify.

So I am simply stating what should have been obvious to everyone from the beginning: Doomers do not believe in America.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby burtonridr » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 14:58:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t's irrelevant whether or not I "believe in America" (whatever that means). My opinion won't have any effect on what is going to happen, for good or ill.
Traditionally, belief in America meant having an inherent confidence in the country's record of scientific and technological innovations, in America's capitalist idealogy, in its institutions, in the industriousness of its citizens, in the talent of its people.

True we do employ some of the smartest people on the planet, however, what do you think powered our innovations?

Give me any discovery or invention in the last century that has completely changed the way we live and I will show you how it is made possible by cheap easy oil.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Ferretlover » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 15:05:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', ' ')Doomers do not believe in the America we have now. They believe in the traditional reasoning, ethics, morals, and values of the decent people of yesteryears. And, that is why there is so much Doom now. It's almost all gone.

Fixed that for you, Carlhole.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby burtonridr » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 15:10:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', ' ')Doomers do not believe in the America we have now. They believe in the traditional reasoning, ethics, morals, and values of the decent people of yesteryears. And, that is why there is so much Doom now. It's almost all gone.

Fixed that for you, Carlhole.


lol yea thats about right... We can all live through this, if we stop with the "consumerism American dream" and transition to a "sustainable American dream"... I believe we can do it, but I also believe it may already be to late for a lot of people on this planet.... Just to little to late....
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 15:40:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', ' ')Doomers do not believe in the America we have now. They believe in the traditional reasoning, ethics, morals, and values of the decent people of yesteryears. And, that is why there is so much Doom now. It's almost all gone.


I'm talking about the same people with the same ethics, morals and values in the same yesteryears YOU are referring to. I'm talking about the American culture as it has evolved over the past two centuries.

I don't see how anyone can think there will be a return to the early 19th century as long as there are possibilities such as this article details:

Peak Oil and Nuclear Power

...or all the other technologies that are continually developing in addition to the remaining fossil fuel assets. Eventually, I think it will be possible to engineer a reliable, economic fusion reactor. May take a few decades.

But let's be clear, if you are suggesting that the American economic paradigm will change, then that is in agreement with my non-doom position.

My position on the matter has always been that American society will adapt and innovate as a response to peak oil. In fact, I have always expected a period of intense innovation once the society has really geared up for it. America might even be a happier country if it is able to say goodbye to rampant consumerism.

American culture may even continue to evolve and prosper in different ways even if wrenching change presents an historic calamity. But that possibility is not the same thing as Doom.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby burtonridr » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 16:13:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')American culture may even continue to evolve and prosper in different ways even if wrenching change presents an historic calamity. But that possibility is not the same thing as Doom.


Exactly it is change and we will get through it, however at what cost? Without proper time to research, develop and implement the different ideas and learn through trial and error we are not able to mitigate the possible loss of life.... Right now with the clock ticking and very little time to properly prepare we have opened the door to a catastrophic nightmare. Its not that I want this to happen, or that I want our way of life to end, its because I dont see a logical way to preserve our way of life and prevent the massive loss of life that could come with this enormous change. To some that may seem doomerish.

Sounds to me that you feel the same way, its just logical that something big has to happen and that we may have reached a population bottle neck. Its not doomerish its just common sense when you understand that a population can only be sustained at this level with extreme energy intensity.

I dont think anyone here believes that we will completely return to the age of 1900 society. What technology has enabled us to learn will not be forgotten, it will be used, it cannot be un learned.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby StuckInPhilly » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 18:29:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'W')e are the country that set up exurbs as far as the eye can see because we weren't thinking about the future (and didn't care).

We are the country that drives through the restaurant, the pharmacy and the convenience store while we proceed to get fatter and fatter.

We have no plans for a solar satellite (Japan) or nuclear (most of Europe) or a decent train system.

What about this demonstrates that we are going to do a whole lot more than sit back and repeat what was done yesterday?


The country really only began to realize the extent and severity of the peak oil problem in a mainstream way when gas prices hit $3.50 and above. That hasn't been a very long time. the country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.

When one talks about 'belief' or 'faith' - as in "I have faith in the American people to change, adapt and innovate" - you are talking about something that hasn't happened yet and you are expressing a point of view about the likelihood of it happening.

So when I say, "Doomers do not believe in America", I'm saying that Doomers, like everyone else, cannot have perfect knowledge about how the future will unfold, nevertheless their overriding tendency is to utterly discredit the cultural confidence and pride that ordinary Americans have historically felt about their country and their ability to overcome serious challenges.

This lack of faith is so complete that Doomers typically indicate that they are merely waiting for America to crash and burn.



Hubbert was making noise in the fifties and the 70's was an excellent demonstration of what happens when we are reliant on the oil of others. It is not difficult to realize that oil is a finite resource.
No one can have perfect knowledge of the future but the best that one can do is make an educated guess based present knowledge.

This is where we diverge - I do not see the US as having any particular talent in overcoming or adapting. I see a great many examples of our ability to turn a blind eye to something that we don't like.

Something may happen to make all this doomer discussion a moot point but the odds are not in favour of it.

Americans prefer happy lies to unpleasant truths and this does not make for adaptability or problem-solving.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 19:12:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'A')mericans prefer happy lies to unpleasant truths and this does not make for adaptability or problem-solving.


I keep having to post the following article which details how America could replace the fraction of its energy it derives from oil:

Peak Oil and Nuclear Power

This is not a lie. This is a reasonable calculation accomplished by someone who is experienced in making such calculations.

And then, of course, there are a variety of alternative energies that are just beginning to be fully explored. Nanosolar shows great promise. We have a newly discovered abundance of natural gas, and the fusion research facility ITER is under construction in Europe.

Doomers insist on having instant results NOW. They tolerate absolutely no time for adaptation or for further research and development in ANYTHING! It's ridiculous. Our fossil fuel resources are not running out overnight. There is time to adapt.

Doomers do not believe in America.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby alpha480v » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 19:44:20

Do I believe in America? Yes. It's the American people that I have no faith in anymore.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby idiom » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 19:50:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 't')he country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.


The America of the 50's would have risen up long ago.

Carl you are being emperically disproven.
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