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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 20:53:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idiom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 't')he country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.


The America of the 50's would have risen up long ago.

Carl you are being emperically disproven.


You spelled "empirically" wrong, you used the word incorrectly since no experiments and observations are involved here, and you can't think straight if you can reconcile the two statements "We are doomed" and "We believe in America".
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby cube » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 21:23:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'A')mericans prefer happy lies to unpleasant truths and this does not make for adaptability or problem-solving.


I keep having to post the following article which details how America could replace the fraction of its energy it derives from oil:

Peak Oil and Nuclear Power

This is not a lie. This is a reasonable calculation accomplished by someone who is experienced in making such calculations.
...
Do I believe nuclear power is humanity's best hope? --> yes
however...
Do I believe there will be an 80% population die-off? --> yes
Do I believe we'll see our standard of living drop by at least 50%? --> yes
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 21:59:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'N')ot "stupid", just blatant spin doctoring. Doesn't even identify the authour.

"Spent nuclear fuel is highly radioactive, and remains so for thousands of years." link

Yeah, but it is technically correct that the long-lived isotopes are only a small percentage. The article states this in a deliberately misleading way, implying that they are not a problem.

Just at a glance, I see quite a few examples of this sort of deceptive ploy in the article. Also some stupid and ignorant stuff.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:07:38

Google "peak uranium".

When you have areas of the country where 50% of the kids don't even graduate from high school, where are we going to get all these innovators from? People here would rather their kid win the football game than go into something "nerdy" like ... science. :roll:

This country has slid into a lowest-common-denominator mindset. There are very few real adults anymore ... most people are adolescent at best, with the viciousness of the middle school bully to anyone who gets in the way of what they're "entitled" to.

The days of America being the "best" have long passed us by. We're well into the Fall of the American Empire, and the barbarians are us.

I believe there are good people in America. Trouble is, the majority would rather pop a beer than do anything difficult.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:08:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StuckInPhilly', 'A')mericans prefer happy lies to unpleasant truths and this does not make for adaptability or problem-solving.


I keep having to post the following article which details how America could replace the fraction of its energy it derives from oil:

Peak Oil and Nuclear Power

This is not a lie. This is a reasonable calculation accomplished by someone who is experienced in making such calculations.
...
Do I believe nuclear power is humanity's best hope? --> yes
however...
Do I believe there will be an 80% population die-off? --> yes
Do I believe we'll see our standard of living drop by at least 50%? --> yes


I think your die-off numbers are too pessimistic. But who knows?

There is no question but that peak oil brings serious challenges. But that's not doom nor the end of civilization. Life on Earth doesn't come with any guarantees. There's no telling what the future will bring - cataclysms and ecstasies, no doubt. Just like the past.

Frankly, if humanity can slim down and develop into
a sensible, wise, eco-technic animal which is able to sustain itself and continue to competently explore the infinitude and minutiae of the Universe, that would be something to die for. That's the objective. Human Beings are quite capable of pulling off game-changing scientific and technological breakthroughs. And Human Beings are extraordinarily adaptable.

Peak Oil Archdruid, John Michael Greer, believes that the peak and decline will be comparable to "falling down stairs rather than a plummet from the 3rd floor balcony". He's just published his new book called 'The Long Descent'.

So there may be deprivation and perhaps even wrenching changes. I don't know. It's the damn future! But we are probably not talking about anything sudden. And that is quite a good thing for adaptation. Evolutions occur best during sustained stresses.

So a few buggers die... they always did anyway and that's a good thing, right?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby RedStateGreen » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:20:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
Frankly, if humanity can ...


There's that pesky 'if' ...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('efarmer', '&')quot;Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"

First thing to ask: Cui bono?
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Snowrunner » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:29:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') don't see how anyone can defend against the basic observation though: Doomers don't believe in America. They have no faith in the country's prowess in science or technology nor in the country's adaptability to altered circumstances.


Because the America that did that in the past doesn't exist anymore, outsourced and sold to the lowest bidder almost two decades ago.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you look at what has comprised American culture, how Americans have had faith in their country through good times and bad over the past two centuries, and if you look at the kinds of things that Americans have historically been proud of about their country -- overcoming problems/opening up huge new markets through scientific innovations is WAY up there near or at the top of the list.


Yes, America once upon a time was the land of opportunity, but those times ended when the US ended up needing foreign money on a daily basis. Take a look at the UK, they once "ruled the world" before their empire crumbled, they still haven't accepted that in certain parts of the population, in most parts though reality has made a crash landing. The "saving grace" for the US was it's Status as the world's only Super Power, something that Bush pissed away with the Iraq invasion, and that it had the world reserve currency, currently getting pissed away by Hank, Paul and Congress.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oomers dismiss out-of-hand all of this American culture, pride, optimism, talent and innovation. They ridicule it. Have contempt for it. If they ever once DID believe in America, they have completely given up on the country now. Not only do they completely lack any faith in America, Doomers often talk about the complete imminent disintegration of the country.


Yes, because if you look at history no empire ever lasted forever, someone mentioned the Romans the other day, they took 400 years to fall apart but also roughly 1100 years to get "to the top", America accomplished the same thing in essentially five years (WWII) and has ruled for over 50 years as one of two "Empires" and the last 20 as the sole "survivor". As the saying goes: All good things must come to an end" and personally looking at American history and the present I do not see a continuation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople have called me "anti-American" for some of my political stances. But how can a Doomer call anyone "anti-american" when Doomers do not believe in America whatsoever? The country and it's culture is dead to them.


No, on life support, and it looks like it will be unplugged soon.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') at least believe that it is possible that the peak oil problem can be taken on by American society and dealt with intelligently. That mere possibility precludes me from the Doom community because "doom" is usually defined as an unavoidable and terminal destiny and that's the way I interpret it.

Everything is possible, but the longer things are delayed and the more other things come up (e.g. the current financial stuff) the more unlikely it becomes.

Personally I do not think that Peak Oil will do the US in, the financial crisis and climate change (human induced or natural is beside the point) will have far greater and imminent effects.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's my main point - Doomers don't believe in America.

If you disagree, I'd love to hear your rationale.

See above, but again, tell me. What makes the US so much different from the rest of the world? Why do you believe that America could make it but don't say: The World can make it?
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:35:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Keith_McClary', 'N')ot "stupid", just blatant spin doctoring. Doesn't even identify the authour.

"Spent nuclear fuel is highly radioactive, and remains so for thousands of years." link


I identified the author a page or two back. You guys just aren't even trying. Just follow the links on the page and it takes you there.

The Energy Report

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The Energy Report', '[')i]About the author: "Donnernv", a pseudonym, is a regular contributor to Motley Fool CAPS. He's an active investor, and has spent 15 years studying energy, macroeconomics and investing. He graduated Yale BEE Electrical Engineering, and has a joint MIT/Harvard Business MBA. Before retiring, he worked for McKinsey and Company, and founded two companies — Canberra Industries (Nuclear research electronics), now owned by AREVA, and Commerce Register (which provides data processing for direct marketing industry).
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby peripato » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:50:58

Hell Carlhole, you're absolutely right! I'm a doomer and I definitely do not believe in America. Maybe it's because I live in Australia! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by peripato on Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:52:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 22:50:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'I') don't see how anyone can defend against the basic observation though: Doomers don't believe in America. They have no faith in the country's prowess in science or technology nor in the country's adaptability to altered circumstances.


You don't have to go to great lengths to explain yourself. I understand your position. I've been posting here since 2004.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Snowrunner', 'W')hat makes the US so much different from the rest of the world? Why do you believe that America could make it but don't say: The World can make it?


Parts of the rest of the world have caught up to the US in recent decades and will surpass it in all likelihood. Many Americans still believe fervently in their country, however. This is because, historically, America has been a leader and this has become a good part of Americans' pride in their country.

I'm not personally yearning for America to go down in flames. However, I have been accused on these forums for being anti-American for various political views. So I began to ask myself, "Hey, wait a minute, how can I be accused on a Doomer board for my anti-American views when all these screw-ups are expecting the damn country to blow apart like next Spring?"

Aside from America, in particular, I have a whole lot of respect for human ingenuity. Much more than the average Doomer around here has.

And it's not because I hold out hope for personal salvation because I've already made my peace with that. I just fully expect that there will be an intense period of innovation and adaptation - which really hasn't commenced in any big way as yet.

And also I really don't pretend to know the future as the Doomers claim to know it. Those who claim certainty about the future are foolish. You never really know what going to happen.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Roccland » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 23:02:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')And also I really don't pretend to know the future as the Doomers claim to know it. Those who claim certainty about the future are foolish. You never really know what going to happen.


There will be a massive die off of the human species (greater than 80%).

This is written in stone.

The only question is when.

I say in under 10 years.

I could be off on the timing - who cares - 10 years...100 years...do you care?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby cube » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 23:18:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '.')..
Peak Oil Archdruid, John Michael Greer, believes that the peak and decline will be comparable to "falling down stairs rather than a plummet from the 3rd floor balcony". He's just published his new book called 'The Long Descent'.
...
That seems like a nice analogy I can relate too.
However the part where you and I disagree is that you think we're going to roll down 3 flights of stairs where as I think it's going to be a 10 story building. :)

I think nuclear power has the potential to keep us from falling back to the dark ages and when the dust finally settles I see no reason why are descendants can't enjoy modern conveniences like refrigerators, TV, and the internet......but make no mistake a post PO world will have a standard of living less than the 1950's.
I think one of the most drastic differences will be dwelling size.
The word "pharaoh" means the man who lives in a big house.
Ever since from day 1 if you're rich you live in a big house and if you're poor you live in a small house.
Something tells me this is not unique to ancient Egypt, it's probably the universal standard across all cultures throughout history.
Makes sense.....agreed?
So using that logic I think the *optimistic* post PO scenario is where a family of 5 lives in a 750 sq ft apartment unit.
Image
The average American today would sneer at such a "living arrangement" but I truly believe that's where "we" or more accurately stated the next generation will be headed.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby idiom » Mon 22 Sep 2008, 23:28:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idiom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 't')he country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.


The America of the 50's would have risen up long ago.

Carl you are being emperically disproven.


You spelled "empirically" wrong, you used the word incorrectly since no experiments and observations are involved here, and you can't think straight if you can reconcile the two statements "We are doomed" and "We believe in America".


The country is in a national emergency. See how everyone is standing up to deal with it? You don't? Oh. That would be a negative observation.

I believe in America, or rather what it stands/stood for. Americants on the other hand, while remaining riddled with noble examples of humanity, are becoming a decrepit race.

The fact that you are waiting for the situation to get dire enough to invoke a response means that you have long since given up on American showing long range foresight.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 00:05:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idiom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('idiom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 't')he country has not risen up as one like peoples do in a national emergency.


The America of the 50's would have risen up long ago.

Carl you are being emperically disproven.


You spelled "empirically" wrong, you used the word incorrectly since no experiments and observations are involved here, and you can't think straight if you can reconcile the two statements "We are doomed" and "We believe in America".


The country is in a national emergency. See how everyone is standing up to deal with it? You don't? Oh. That would be a negative observation.

I believe in America, or rather what it stands/stood for. Americants on the other hand, while remaining riddled with noble examples of humanity, are becoming a decrepit race.

The fact that you are waiting for the situation to get dire enough to invoke a response means that you have long since given up on American showing long range foresight.


Well, I don't know exactly what you trying to say. But it sure don't seem like you believe in America.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Snowrunner » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 00:56:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'Y')ou don't have to go to great lengths to explain yourself. I understand your position. I've been posting here since 2004.


Hey, you asked me for my rational, don't complain if I give it to you :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')arts of the rest of the world have caught up to the US in recent decades and will surpass it in all likelihood. Many Americans still believe fervently in their country, however. This is because, historically, America has been a leader and this has become a good part of Americans' pride in their country.


Actually historically the US has been isolationist, outside of meddle a bit in the Caribbean during the early parts of the 20th century. It wasn't until the end of WWII that the US started building it's Empire.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not personally yearning for America to go down in flames. However, I have been accused on these forums for being anti-American for various political views. So I began to ask myself, "Hey, wait a minute, how can I be accused on a Doomer board for my anti-American views when all these screw-ups are expecting the damn country to blow apart like next Spring?"


Most people who talk about the end of the United States do so in the hopes to get a different outcome.

Personally, not being American or living there (any more) don't wish ill on the US either, but I don't hold the belief in the "God Given Supremacy" of the United States either.

Stating that I believe in "The End(TM)" doesn't mean that I necessarily wish for it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')side from America, in particular, I have a whole lot of respect for human ingenuity. Much more than the average Doomer around here has.


I do too, but I see very little in Leadership, and i see too many problems coming up that require SMART leadership, and the world is side tracked by petty issues.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd it's not because I hold out hope for personal salvation because I've already made my peace with that. I just fully expect that there will be an intense period of innovation and adaptation - which really hasn't commenced in any big way as yet.

And also I really don't pretend to know the future as the Doomers claim to know it. Those who claim certainty about the future are foolish. You never really know what going to happen.

Sure, you don't know for SURE, but you can make educated guesses, looking back, looking at the present and looking forward you can make some extrapolations.

My "logic" in life has been: Plan for the Worst, hope for the Best, deal with the Rest.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 05:29:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')Image
The average American today would sneer at such a "living arrangement" but I truly believe that's where "we" or more accurately stated the next generation will be headed.


The funny thing is if you roll the clock back further, the houses actually get LARGER. The old houses from the 1800s here in New England tend to be pretty huge with tons of fireplaces. That's not to say large colonials and victorians are sustainable in a world of 6.7 billion people. Just thought the view of history should be a little broader than the last half century.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby hope_full » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 05:47:16

I do believe in America. And I also believe in history. History has a lot to tell us about the rise and fall of empires.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 09:13:55

Carlhole, I ask you again, What is America, precisely?

If you can't define it how can you know if you believe in it?

Probably you would come up with lots of phrases like "boundless optimism," "can-do spirit," "coming through in the clutch," "freedom" (or that other timeworn favorite, "liberty"), "toughness," "inventiveness," etc. etc.

Those are the evocations of a pioneer time that's long gone. Good for historical use only.
America has drastically changed physically since those days. There are still many open spaces, but even they are under government control or military control or state control or rancher or miner control or somebody's control.

Our population density is vastly higher now than then and continues to rise. I would posit that American-type dreams shrink in direct proportion to the population density. Look at the countries with the highest pop. densities and ask if you'd want to live there. Places like India. Bangladesh. Nigeria. China. England. Or even a state like Connecticut. Not much of the old American spirit in those places. Everything is tightly controlled and life for most is regimented and squalid and dull. Even the rich have to live in guarded compounds, like prisoners.

That's what's happening. You can't get back what we've lost---not without an economic reversal and dieoff, anyway. But the landscape will never be the same in our lifetimes or a dozen lifetimes. As our population density increases and development proceeds, what you think of as America will continue to degrade.

We think too much in terms of platitudes and not enough in terms of geography---the very ground. That's where the dreams are born, live, and die---in the dirt.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Roccland » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 09:29:16

Image

I do believe in amerika...

I do believe in amerika...

I do believe in amerika...
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 09:48:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'C')arlhole, I ask you again, What is America, precisely?


I've been as clear and unequivocal as I can possibly be. If the broader public had lost as much faith in the country as Doomers have, it would be a major sociological phenomenon. Books, films, documentaries would be created that explored the issue.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')raditionally, belief in America meant having an inherent confidence in the country's record of scientific and technological innovations, in America's capitalist idealogy, in its institutions, in the industriousness of its citizens, in the talent of its people.

This should be obvious to anyone who watches the news. I shouldn't have to keep on describing what "belief in America" is. Politicians appeal to this inherent American confidence in themselves continually. It simply means that when confronted by a very uncertain future, Americans traditionally have had a strong trust that American culture would be able to meet and overcome great difficulties .

If you look at what has comprised American culture over the past two centuries... if you look at how Americans have had faith in their country through good times and bad, and if you make a list of the kinds of things that Americans have historically been proud of -- overcoming major problems through technological innovation is WAY up there at the top of the list.

Doomers dismiss all of this traditional confidence in America completely because they are absolutely certain in their calculation that America will NOT be able to meet the challenge that Peak Oil poses. The assumption seems to be that America will simply crumble and cease to exist.

I don't know what else "Doom" would signify.

So I am simply stating what should have been obvious to everyone from the beginning: Doomers do not believe in America.
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