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Doomers Don't Believe In America

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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby manu » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 10:00:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'I') believe in America. Strongly. I do not believe in this recent orgy we've had over the last 20 years or os.
Probably America's most admirable cultural and historical trait has been its ability to foster incredible feats of creative innovation. How do you reconcile Doomerism with the indomitable American spirit of invention?

Invention and innovation persist, whether that is high dollar, high tech, bound to the spirit of gluttony; or the fast thinking, ingenious engineer who brings a town's first forge online after all our modern luxuries have been lost to the crash.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eems to me that if you are a Doomer, you do not believe in America.
Whether American craftsman are trying to become God and create entirely new life; or creating the first new steel rod in twenty years; it remains American innovation, spirit, and craftsmanship.

There is nothing innovative about a forge. That's 18th century technology.

Articles like this one, have repeated endlessly that people must return to village life or tribal life. In other words, this vision rejects the great majority of great American innovations of the 20th century. This kind of Doomer vision counts as completely foregone the sort of continuing innovative thrust that American culture could possibly manifest in the approaching era of declining fossil fuels.

Personally, I think a return to tribal life is a non-starter without there first being a radical and dramatic population decrease. Because it is relatively dense population that creates the whole expectation of there being an entity called 'America' in the first place - along with our nation's dense composition of complex systems and inter-related institutions, and our general optimism and expectation that a bright national future can be achieved.

The true expression of a nation lies in the dynamic of its people - not in any paper document. Otherwise, whole cultures could be changed at the flick of a pen. American innovation and adaptation has been our proudest national trait for over two centuries. It's been especially so since the triumph of the "Greatest Generation" that Pat Buchanan mentioned.

Seems to me that those who advocate a return to tribal life simply do not believe in any sort of possibility of a triumphant cultural America because they do not believe in our most positive, fundamental identity.

Retrenching into the past seems to me to be a complete rejection of basic American character and ideals. It's not looking forward... it's looking backward.

If a retirement into tribal life occurs, America will have surely died.


Is that "greatest generation" the one that exploited the rest of the world for the "living the dream" lifestyle. Read the Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. Also read Petrodollar's paper. America's dream has been other countries nightmare. Since when did the founding father's of the U.S.A. say greed, exploitation, gluttony, rape of the earth, pollution of her oceans and rivers was basic American character and ideals. As for living simple and in harmony with nature, what is wrong with that? The educational system of the West trys to put that down as dirty, disease, uneducated and backward. Actually a simple life with God conciousness is the only way out for this planet right now. But time is short and to get a collective change for that right now without a dieoff is slim. A few months ago the great leaders said the fundamentals are strong, all is well and now there is panic on wall st. You haven't seen nothing yet. For most of America the party has been over for some time, but for the bubble boys, yes, for you too, the party's also now over.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 10:16:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'I')s that "greatest generation" the one that exploited the rest of the world for the "living the dream" lifestyle. Read the Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. Also read Petrodollar's paper. America's dream has been other countries nightmare. Since when did the founding father's of the U.S.A. say greed, exploitation, gluttony, rape of the earth, pollution of her oceans and rivers was basic American character and ideals. As for living simple and in harmony with nature, what is wrong with that? The educational system of the West trys to put that down as dirty, disease, uneducated and backward. Actually a simple life with God conciousness is the only way out for this planet right now. But time is short and to get a collective change for that right now without a dieoff is slim. A few months ago the great leaders said the fundamentals are strong, all is well and now there is panic on wall st. You haven't seen nothing yet. For most of America the party has been over for some time, but for the bubble boys, yes, for you too, the party's also now over.


Man, you REALLY don't believe in America!
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby cube » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 13:50:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '.')..
The funny thing is if you roll the clock back further, the houses actually get LARGER. The old houses from the 1800s here in New England tend to be pretty huge with tons of fireplaces. That's not to say large colonials and victorians are sustainable in a world of 6.7 billion people. Just thought the view of history should be a little broader than the last half century.
*delicate cough*
No offense but I think you're cherry picking data.
Sure there was that 2% of society that lived a *privileged* life but for most people it sucked ass.

what was the average home size? well it depends:
colonial times
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first North American homes were very small, one room, one-storey structures that were based on European building techniques brought by settlers and eventually adapted to the building materials, climatic conditions, and topography of the New World. The majority of these structures had less than 450 square feet of space, but were eventually remodelled and expanded over time.


19th Century
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n the cities, small row houses went up in great numbers in the first half of the century, virtually all with parlours. The average urban row house was narrow, usually only 15-20 feet across, extending back for 30-40 feet. With the mounting pressure for effective land utilization, row houses became narrower and deeper over time; two 25 feet lots were divided into three.
...
As with most other rooms, the bedroom was largely an invention of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Until then all but the most privileged colonists lived in one or two rooms and beds stood throughout their homes.


Twentieth Century
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ot sizes began to grow after the turn of the century. Early 20th century bungalows were one-storey or storey and a half dwellings of between 600 and 800 square feet. In most new houses of the early twentieth century, square footage was drastically reduced to compensate for the increased expenses of plumbing, heating, and other technological improvements... Housing studies also related the reduced square footage to the decline in domestic production of goods. There was no longer a need for places to store away quilts, home-canned vegetables, and dowry linens for future use. People were no longer producers, but consumers.

Bungalows in the 1940s had lots measuring 60 by 100 feet.


In conclusion
Home sizes in America fluctuated from 450 to 800 sq ft. (for the middle class)
The 1,000 sq ft threshold didn't appear until the 1950's when freeways became available to the masses. I don't think this is a happy coincidence. I think it was the availability of freeways and thus the freedom to travel great distances that made the 1,000 sq ft home possible.
IMHO the ultimate end result of PO is where people live in homes smaller than 1,000 sq ft.

my 2 cents.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America (was The Party's Over)

Unread postby Snowrunner » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 14:28:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'T')he funny thing is if you roll the clock back further, the houses actually get LARGER. The old houses from the 1800s here in New England tend to be pretty huge with tons of fireplaces. That's not to say large colonials and victorians are sustainable in a world of 6.7 billion people. Just thought the view of history should be a little broader than the last half century.


Yes, but not everybody was living in these houses, it was the REALLY well off, those that today live on a 10000sqft house overlooking the Hollywood Hills etc. Not your average Joe.

MDUs (Multiple Dewelling Units) will be back in fashion soon enough out of a variety of reasons.
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Re: Pat Buchanan - The Party's Over

Unread postby burtonridr » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 16:30:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'I')s that "greatest generation" the one that exploited the rest of the world for the "living the dream" lifestyle. Read the Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. Also read Petrodollar's paper......


Man, you REALLY don't believe in America!


And you REALLY dont have a clue!

Its not that doomers dont believe in america. Its that what once made america great has been corrupted and its values have been lost.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Heineken » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 16:56:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'C')arlhole, I ask you again, What is America, precisely?


I've been as clear and unequivocal as I can possibly be. If the broader public had lost as much faith in the country as Doomers have, it would be a major sociological phenomenon. Books, films, documentaries would be created that explored the issue.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')raditionally, belief in America meant having an inherent confidence in the country's record of scientific and technological innovations, in America's capitalist idealogy, in its institutions, in the industriousness of its citizens, in the talent of its people.

This should be obvious to anyone who watches the news. I shouldn't have to keep on describing what "belief in America" is. Politicians appeal to this inherent American confidence in themselves continually. It simply means that when confronted by a very uncertain future, Americans traditionally have had a strong trust that American culture would be able to meet and overcome great difficulties .

If you look at what has comprised American culture over the past two centuries... if you look at how Americans have had faith in their country through good times and bad, and if you make a list of the kinds of things that Americans have historically been proud of -- overcoming major problems through technological innovation is WAY up there at the top of the list.

Doomers dismiss all of this traditional confidence in America completely because they are absolutely certain in their calculation that America will NOT be able to meet the challenge that Peak Oil poses. The assumption seems to be that America will simply crumble and cease to exist.

I don't know what else "Doom" would signify.

So I am simply stating what should have been obvious to everyone from the beginning: Doomers do not believe in America.


I'm not entirely satisfied with your definition. You're saying that America is a set of old beliefs, almost like a religion. I'm saying that America is a here-and-now place made up of land, people, resources, climates, industry, and a hell of a lot of laws, taxes, roads, cars, and Quickie-Marts . . . reality.

The old beliefs are out-of-step with the new reality. That's why we're crying into our beer cans.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Byron100 » Tue 23 Sep 2008, 17:20:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', '
')
I'm not entirely satisfied with your definition. You're saying that America is a set of old beliefs, almost like a religion. I'm saying that America is a here-and-now place made up of land, people, resources, climates, industry, and a hell of a lot of laws, taxes, roads, cars, and Quickie-Marts . . . reality.

The old beliefs are out-of-step with the new reality. That's why we're crying into our beer cans.


Very well put, Heineken. There's all kinds of "Americas" depending on who you ask...the "Christian" America that fundamental Christians are so fond of, the "American Dream if you just work hard" America they taught me in school, which I used to believe in, but no longer, and so on and so forth. You can define a country in so many different ways, and it's downright impossible to come up with a singular definition of this country, unless you describe what's right here in front of us - what Heiny just mentioned. Our cities and sprawling suburbs, our Interstate system, our government which is experiencing a current bout of pure insanity...get the idea?

Being a doomer has nothing to do with believing in America, it's believing that we (along with the rest of the world in my opinion), faces severe, possibly insurmountable difficulties due to peak oil and environmental degradation. And being a doomer means that our way of life *as we live it now* is coming to an end. But this has nothing to do with America...as America will most likely still be here after the Great Calamity...it just won't be the same country we're living in today. And to be truthful, the possible America of the future - one that's not consumed by the disease of consumerism and unabashed greed - is a place I'd rather be, as opposed to the America I'm currently living in today.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Heineken » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 12:46:26

I believe in America, but the America I believe in no longer exists.

I don't think technological or military or economic prowess makes a tit's worth of difference. That's not the sort of America that interests me.

I am pretty certain that America the political entity will break up into pieces---possibly, warring pieces---at some point in the future.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Byron100 » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 13:14:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') believe in America, but the America I believe in no longer exists.

I don't think technological or military or economic prowess makes a tit's worth of difference. That's not the sort of America that interests me.

I am pretty certain that America the political entity will break up into pieces---possibly, warring pieces---at some point in the future.


You mean like in that TV show Jericho they aired a couple years back? Such a scenario does seem plausible, although I don't think people would be too thrilled about that god-awful flag that represented the western states...LOL.

I sometimes think that it really would be better for all of us if America did break up into various nation-states during or after the Calamity, as there's just no way that the federal government will be able to hold it together in the face of so many debilitating factors. The two regions I think would fare best would be New England + New York State (possibly PA as well), and Cascadia, which would include the NW states as well as British Columbia.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby cube » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 13:17:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') believe in America, but the America I believe in no longer exists.
...
I totally agree.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Snowrunner » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 13:25:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Byron100', 'I') sometimes think that it really would be better for all of us if America did break up into various nation-states during or after the Calamity, as there's just no way that the federal government will be able to hold it together in the face of so many debilitating factors. The two regions I think would fare best would be New England + New York State (possibly PA as well), and Cascadia, which would include the NW states as well as British Columbia.


You may want to read S. M. Stirlings: "Dies the Fire", which is... Well, call it doomer porn, the whole thing is essentially about modern technology stopping to work from one day to the other, it's an interesting insight into a world without modern technologies, but his "magic" aspect of it I find rather tiring.

He essentially draws a world in which the US has broken up completely, most of Europe (minus England) has fallen into Anarchy and cannibalism is rife.

It's a cute telling really, although some of the political dynamics he creates I find a bit unlikely, but then again, it is fiction.

There is also a short lived TV Show called "Jeremiah" which has a similar basic theme to it.

As for the real world... I am still wondering if the world would be better off with States that are no longer United or not.... The vast amounts of weapons I find a bit disconcerting, not to mention the nuclear ones.

Ah well, time will tell.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby MrBean » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 14:19:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
Or don't you believe in America?


Nooooooyp.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 14:32:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'Q')uestion is, how will America react and adapt once it recognizes that a precious past is forever lost? Or don't you believe in America?
First, I'm a doomer and do believe in America.

My overly simplified WAG scenario says we'll end this BS of War on Terrorism, we'll bring manufacturing back home, there will be a huge demand destruction, a significant reduction in population, and we'll live like mere mortals until we get cocky again and think we should own the whole world.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Carlhole » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 14:46:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') believe in America, but the America I believe in no longer exists.
...
I totally agree.


I think YOU guys are the ones that need to clarify yourselves. Not me.

WTF does this mean? "I believe in America, but the America I believe in no longer exists"

In this thread, we are talking about how Americans typically have had confidence in themselves, their talents, their institutions, their ability to innovate and adapt -- as they look ahead into the future and its challenges.

It's a theme that is always dealt with in historical treatments, in films, in documentaries... Politicians always appeal to this cultural unity as they campaign because it draws people of differing perspectives together. America has a historical, traditional culture and culture is a powerful force in human affairs.

An entrepreneurial spirit is one aspect of American culture of which the nation is most proud and which the nation would most like to maintain as a backbone of our market economy. This is the spirit of innovation. It is a system of rewarding good ideas and new ways of doing things. It is ingrained into American, history and culture.

The whole of this thread is simply an observation that Doomers do not believe in the ability of American culture to adjust and respond to a decline in fossil fuel supply. And even if Doomers are shown a reasonable route that American society might take in order to adapt to a new energy paradigm, Doomers do not believe that America has the will, genius, wisdom, or human energy to make big changes.

I could take more time and lay out a better thumbnail roadmap of energy adaptation as we move into the future but I don't feel like it. Part of my point is that no matter WHAT sort of raodmap is laid before them, Doomers have a reflexive response to all of them. Ridicule and condemn them. Why? Because Doomer's do not believe in America. Actually, they dismiss innovation and adaptability no matter where it is developed - it's just that America has long been and remains a world-class innovator.

Doomers will assure you that only THEY are able to see how the future will unfold. They will assure you that every other view is ignorant and/or delusional. They cannot see how a whole society might adapt and continue making new advancements - even if that adaptation might entail a long-term population reduction and/or a moving away from rampant consumerism.

No. Doomers insist that full societies will fail, fracturing into pale shadows of themselves which progress backwards through time and technology. Nevermind that anyone's certainty about the future is foolish -- Doomers have seen the future and it looks like the past.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'H')ere's today's relevant article. I find them all the time: Peak Oil and Nuclear Power Lots of great links to back up the author's main points. Please read it!

Construction of nuclear reactors is OLD technology. This does not take into account energy innovations, conservation and adaptation at all.

Can you prove that fusion energy is entirely impossible? Scientists much more knowledgeable than you are building a very expensive ITER in Europe in order to accomplish that very feat.

Now, I understand that Doomers have absolutely ZERO respect for science or people that chase off after hare-brained ideas like fusion energy. But I think there's a pretty good chance that people will eventually crack that nut. And I think they'll do it before fissionable materials run out - which is many decades.

So, we will continue to use fossil fuels. We will utilize our increasing abundance of natural gas and coal as we build new nuclear plants. As nukes are constructed, we will augment their electricity using renewables and implementing passive and active solar. The price of energy will rise high enough so as to spur conservation as never before. This whole process will play out into the future, possibly decades as research into fusion energy continues apace. Until we have proved that it is impossible, I expect that developing fusion energy will eventually yield to success.


Doomers, however, have about as much faith in the ability of Science to eventually crack the fusion puzzle as they do in the ability of American entrepreneurs to innovate or the American people to adapt.

Doomers do not believe in America.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Pops » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:07:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'D')oomers do not believe in America.

Naw, Doomers are the most American.

They either believe society won't take care of them in times of trouble so they must be prepared to take care of themselves, or they wish for the days when resources were free for the taking if they are up to the taking.

Both very American.

But those who look to Others for solutions to trouble seem somewhat less American to me.

I think your theory is pretty silly.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Carlhole » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:23:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'D')oomers do not believe in America.

Naw, Doomers are the most American.

They either believe society won't take care of them in times of trouble so they must be prepared to take care of themselves, or they wish for the days when resources were free for the taking if they are up to the taking.

Both very American.

But those who look to Others for solutions to trouble seem somewhat less American to me.

I think your theory is pretty silly.


This is not damn theory.

I'm just repeating what Doomers say they believe.

They do not believe that American society has a future. They do not believe that modern societies can adapt.

They have no qualms with the fact that American society adapted to abundant fossil fuel supplies. But they do not believe that America can adapt to declining supplies or to different energy paradigms. Instead of adaptation, they expect to see complete disintegration.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:32:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '.')..or they wish for the days when resources were free for the taking if they are up to the taking.
I need to think more about this, Pops. Me thinks this is how we kind of got here. Let me sleep on it.
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Pops » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:36:00

See, you are going off on me when I'm agreeing with you for the most part.

Doomers don't think society can take care of them.

Nor that there will always be a silver bullet.

Or, they wish to have TPTB taken out so they can get their stuff.

Cornucopians, OTOH, believe in something totally different than what has been the American experience.

Namely, that Someone else will find a way.

Is that wrong?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:40:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')ee, you are going off on me when I'm agreeing with you for the most part.
Me?
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Re: Doomers Don't Believe In America

Unread postby Pops » Thu 25 Sep 2008, 17:42:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')ee, you are going off on me when I'm agreeing with you for the most part.
Me?

Sorry, I was ranting to Carl.
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