[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'Y')ou cannot just make bold statements that the government should stop bailing out its citizens when any government that didn't take short term actions wouldn't stand a chance in hell of surviving.

[Ibon]

OK. This idea sucks for the reasons explained.

On the general topic of "bailing out" citizens or corporations making bad decisions it makes sense that the best course is letting an economic process of "natural selection" weed out those institutions and individuals.

But as economic pressures start disenfranchising larger percentages of the population government will be forced to mitigate short term crises to avoid social revolutions. Latin American politics have pragmatically shifted left during the past 10 years for this very reason.

Does anyone argue that the US economy, increasingly mired in debt, will start producing an underclass of disenfranchised citizens whose growing numbers will eventually threaten the stability of government similar to many Latin American countries?

These social pressures will grow immense in the years to come. Whining over gas prices and losing your SUV is just the opening acts .

[Twilight]

Change at the individual level is necessary and inevitable. People will come up with all sorts of arguments why they should not change and someone else should, but with finite resources, appeasing any group will be at a cost to another. By bowing to the demands of the "disenfranchised", and on the contrary they would in fact be the kingmakers, governments will succeed in little more than playing revolutionary Whac-A-Mole.
Here is a typical example from today's news.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BBC', '"')We hope to also send a strong message to the government that, as the working people in this country, we are not going to be taking on the burden when it comes to financing [electrical] power," National Union of Mineworkers spokesman Lesiba Seshoka told the BBC's Network Africa programme.

[mrobert]

@MrBill: You are right. Let me give you a real life example.

Overhere, the government offers you a subsidy if you save money for a new house, change your house or improve it. It's a nice idea.
How it goes?

I open an account with a bank for 2 or 5 years, and start putting in money monthly. Once a year, the government pays the subsidy into that account. At the end of the period, I can use the money.

Where is the catch?
Banks pay no more the 3% yearly interest for that money, credited at the end of the year. The government will pay the subsidy this year, for last year.
The subsidy is a percentage of that money, capped. The most you can get in terms of percentages, is up to 10% per year.

Current CD interest rates here, are between 8 and 11%.

Now, even in best case scenario, If I decide to put my savings in simple CD's and don't apply for the subsidy, I still make at least that sum of money. (Interest is capitalized and paid monthly).

It looks VERY GOOD on paper, but practically, 100% of the government subsidy actually subsidisez banks interest paid for people's deposits, offering a wonderfull source of 0% interest rate financing for banks.

[Canuk]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'A')ny government subsidy that favored domestic versus foreign imports would in any case fall foul of WTO obligations triggering tit for tat tariffs on US exports that are currently at record levels due a weak US dollar. Any subsidy paid to American car makers for small cars at the exclusion of foreign automakers - $2000, $5.000, $10.000 - would get capitalized into the price of US made small cars. That would benefit car makers at the expense of taxpayers. There is no way the car makers will pass along that windfall except in rebates that narrow the price difference between domestic made cars and similar imports. I can see the car companies working on those spreadsheets right now.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Twilight', '[')url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7544359.stm]Here is a typical example from today's news.[/url]

[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'S')o if I'm running a company and I can't make a profit then I'm not allowed to let go of employees? Collapse looks like a guarantee.

[Denny]

I am for REAL change. Let's not subsidize anybody's purchase of any kind of vehcile, instead, let them trade in their SUV's for a pittance, and they can use that on public transit.

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'I') am for REAL change. Let's not subsidize anybody's purchase of any kind of vehcile, instead, let them trade in their SUV's for a pittance, and they can use that on public transit.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'F')rom the US car makers, we are not getting 40+ mpg cars we are getting hybrid SUVs!

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('canuk', 'L')ight Trucks which includes SUV's have been subsidized for years. They have been shielded from foreign competition by tariffs and subsidized by various loopholes in the tax laws and environmental regulations. There are many articles on the 25% tariff, here's one that explains the histroy of it. link

[Javaman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'F')rom the US car makers, we are not getting 40+ mpg cars we are getting hybrid SUVs!

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Javaman', 'F')rom the US car makers, we are not getting 40+ mpg cars we are getting hybrid SUVs!

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '"')At least a small step in the right direction" is not a very bold political move when the car companies have the ability to churn out vehicles that get 40 to 50 mpg with existing materials and technologies.

[mrobert]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '"')At least a small step in the right direction" is not a very bold political move when the car companies have the ability to churn out vehicles that get 40 to 50 mpg with existing materials and technologies.

[Canuk]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'B')ut it would be against WTO rules to give a direct subsidy to US auto manufacturers by giving SUV owners a subsidy to only buy from domestic car companies. That would be quickly challenged by foreign automakers just like some rules that require states to only purchase domestically have also been challenged.

[vaseline2008]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Armageddon', 'T')he government should just print all of us one million dollars.

[Ibon]

When I started this thread I mentioned the original idea came from a friend who came up with this during a conversation we had. He is not a member of the peak oil community but I directed him to this thread so that he could see how people responded to his idea. Let's call my friend Yarbo to give him a name. Below please find Yarbo's response. It is interesting to read his fresh perspective not having been so deeply immersed in this topic as many of us have been. I find Yarbo's insights valuable.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yarbo', 'S')ome of those posts were stupid. "Subsidizing something makes more of it." That's a retarded reflection. What subsidizing? Its a "trade in". Of what would there be more to make? People get caught up in buzz words. Not a one mentioned the admirable benefit of recycling the money being lost in Iraq towards domestic solutions.

I would think the first order in the business of thwarting oil consumption is to plug the big leaks in the system. What's with the negative comments? In the large picture there is a dynamic at play with that idea that supercedes the simple basic idea of simple replacement of low gas mileage vehicles.

People are easily influenced. Government assistance in replacing gas guzzling vehicles with more efficient ones would assist in showing the country that there is an urgent need to address our apparent fuel crisis. Positive, creative gestures from the government to constructively save fuel (while supporting US manufactured automobiles, thus supporting our struggling economy), would be a ray of sunshine for our generally disgusted and or disillusioned population. Trust in our government is so extremely low right now. Many many people are very allegiant to a sense of patriotism and if the government made a genuine attempt of encouraging energy conservation, I believe for the first time in a long time, people would find themselves part of a society they could possibly feel themselves happy to be members of. Maybe Ford can come up with an energy efficient model for this program. It could be called "Freedom" and would be available in only red, white and blue. The population might even call energy conservation "The will of God".

Here in the South there are tons of people who go to church, behave conservatively, voted for Bush and will likely vote for McCain. Many of these southern neighbors and friends are actually very nice people and consider themselves truly devoted towards doing the right thing for their families and their country. These people are not evil or inherently bad. In fact many of them I'd trust with my life, where I wouldn't trust many "open minded liberals", similar to myself, as far as I could throw us. Lets face it, sometimes we liberals can be the same self centered smug little pricks we call "the others". If you want to change things, bridge the gap and appeal to the masses

Living in the South has taught me that if I have to indulge in practicing prejudice that I apply my prejudice not towards race, shoe size, religion, sock color, party affiliation, marachino cherries lovers or people that like to stuff green olives with pimentos in their anus, but towards arrogance. I've yet to find any gathering of minds short of arrogance. To those that truly understand the repulsive nature of the Bush administration and still support them, fuck em. But for the many uneducated Republicans out there who simply are being supportive of what they think is best for their country, cut them some slack. They watch Fox news, clutch their bibles and simply do not understand.

So, give them their new car, a new purpose, a new flag, a new direction and something to stand behind other than the most wretched unethical war in US history.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')hen I started this thread I mentioned the original idea came from a friend who came up with this during a conversation we had. He is not a member of the peak oil community but I directed him to this thread so that he could see how people responded to his idea. Let's call my friend Yarbo to give him a name. Below please find Yarbo's response. It is interesting to read his fresh perspective not having been so deeply immersed in this topic as many of us have been. I find Yarbo's insights valuable. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yarbo', '.')......

[Twilight]

I will address the one substantive point:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Subsidizing something makes more of it." That's a retarded reflection. What subsidizing? Its a "trade in". Of what would there be more to make? People get caught up in buzz words.