[MrBill]

And I will take Denmark's experience over Cuba's anyday!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nlike America, Denmark, which was so badly hammered by the 1973 Arab oil embargo that it banned all Sunday driving for a while, responded to that crisis in such a sustained, focused and systematic way that today it is energy independent. (And it didn’t happen by Danish politicians making their people stupid by telling them the solution was simply more offshore drilling.)

What was the trick? To be sure, Denmark is much smaller than us and was lucky to discover some oil in the North Sea. But despite that, Danes imposed on themselves a set of gasoline taxes, CO2 taxes and building-and-appliance efficiency standards that allowed them to grow their economy — while barely growing their energy consumption — and gave birth to a Danish clean-power industry that is one of the most competitive in the world today. Denmark today gets nearly 20 percent of its electricity from wind. America? About 1 percent.

And did Danes suffer from their government shaping the market with energy taxes to stimulate innovations in clean power? In one word, said Connie Hedegaard, Denmark’s minister of climate and energy: “No.” It just forced them to innovate more — like the way Danes recycle waste heat from their coal-fired power plants and use it for home heating and hot water, or the way they incinerate their trash in central stations to provide home heating. (There are virtually no landfills here.)

There is little whining here about Denmark having $10-a-gallon gasoline because of high energy taxes. The shaping of the market with high energy standards and taxes on fossil fuels by the Danish government has actually had “a positive impact on job creation,” added Hedegaard. “For example, the wind industry — it was nothing in the 1970s. Today, one-third of all terrestrial wind turbines in the world come from Denmark.” In the last 10 years, Denmark’s exports of energy efficiency products have tripled. Energy technology exports rose 8 percent in 2007 to more than $10.5 billion in 2006, compared with a 2 percent rise in 2007 for Danish exports as a whole.

“It is one of our fastest-growing export areas,” said Hedegaard. It is one reason that unemployment in Denmark today is 1.6 percent. In 1973, said Hedegaard, “we got 99 percent of our energy from the Middle East. Today it is zero.”

Frankly, when you compare how America has responded to the 1973 oil shock and how Denmark has responded, we look pathetic.

[Ibon]

For the last two posters I would suggest that comparing Cuba to either the USA or Denmark is like comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps comparing Cuba to some of their neighbors with similar socio economic conditions would be a better choice. Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, or even Puerto Rico, Nicaragua, El Salvador.

Embracing some contradictions is certainly required if your going to discuss Cuba with an open mind. The last couple of posts fall into the classic polarized positions.

[MrBill]

That's me. Polarized. I only like what works. And I do not waste kudos on what doesn't just because they may have backward neighbors that are doing even worse. I am quite happy not living in Latam and certainly do not see them as examples to emulate. So I guess you can disregard my opinions because obviously my mind is not open enough to accept economic failure as a qualified success.

[joelcolorado]

I always am amazed at the ppl like Gore and on here complain about USA use of power but I see THEY are still online using electricity etc. Depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('joelcolorado', 'I') always am amazed at the ppl like Gore and on here complain about USA use of power but I see THEY are still online using electricity etc. Depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '.') So I guess you can disregard my opinions because obviously my mind is not open enough to accept economic failure as a qualified success.

[joelcolorado]

They are so happy in cuba they take boats and risk their lives to bring that happiness to the USA

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') It just depends on how much of a big fat stinking hypocrite one chooses to be. I'm probably a moderately plump, not too odiferous hypocrite.

[MrBill]

You're right, Ibon, the Cubans have managed to adapt to a reality that has been largely forced on them inspite of their leaders not because of their leaders.

Whenever I criticize I criticize governments not the people. People are people. I can get along with ordinary Iranians or Palestinians or Israelis or Venezueleans, but still harshly criticize their governments and their actions.

Just like I am Canadian, but I feel perfectly free to collectively criticize Canadians and their government if and when I think they are going in the wrong direction. Especially their whining, complaining and relying too heavily on the government to solve all their problems for them. I can hardly read ctv.ca or cbc.ca news stories and the related comments by readers without feeling slightly disgusted by the comments, which typically criticize any and all initiatives, and start something like "really, we live in a rich country, the government should do something about (insert problem)...."

That is not ideology unless somehow fiscal conservatism and social liberalism combined with a realization that nothing is free and that rights and freedoms come with obligations and costs counts as an ideology? If so then welcome to the Church of MrBill! ; - ))

[halcyon]

MrBill, good point on Denmark. However, we are still talking of different things.

Denmark did what they did over a period of 25 years after an oil PRICE shock that then eased. Cuba did what they did over 5-10 years in a face of an oil SUPPLY shock that lasted quite a time for them. The economic conditions were also different. So, different shocks, different responses.

I like the Denmark model myself, and it's closer to the OECD countries. I have no romantic notions about Cuba.

However, if we hit a global declining net exports of 5% p.a. or more in a few years, then any type of Denmark approach might not be feasible. We should have Denmarked ourselves two decades ago. IF/when TSHTF, it may be way too late. It all of course depends on so many factors, that it's impossible to forecast.

In the end, we may have to mix our own brand of magic elixir to fix our own disease as it may not come only in the form of PO, but along other converging problems (AGW, economic crisis, etc). Time will tell, but it's good to stay cognitively flexible and open for any tool that fits the situation, once it starts evolving.

[MrBill]

I kind of like the term Denmarkation based on the word demarcation as in we should have Denmarkated our economies from reliance on external imports of energy a generation ago after the first OPEC supply shocks! ; - ))

I should be clear about my expectations. Denmark or Japan is what you might get if you plan ahead. Cuba or Zimbabwe is what you get by default if you do not plan ahead. It is the default option. Just let your economy become a Haiti and let the people adapt as best as they can.

That, of course, is not something that I would aspire to. But that is also not to say that this is where most of the world is headed post peak oil. Collectively we have not taken the necessary steps to Denmarkate our economies, so we are still too reliant on foreign imports of oil that are in any case on the backward slope. What is left is perhaps only regional and local solutions based on their experiences.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Canuk', 'T')here are threads already on EV's that go into far more detail but they have significant issues beyond the tooling costs such as electricity, infrastructure, material restraints, etc. Switching to EV's would require enourmous investments in infrastructure and would require a significant time frame to implement - it is far simpler to use our existing infrastruture more effciently.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') should be clear about my expectations. Denmark or Japan is what you might get if you plan ahead. Cuba or Zimbabwe is what you get by default if you do not plan ahead. It is the default option. Just let your economy become a Haiti and let the people adapt as best as they can.

[Ibon]

The smaller cars suddenly don't look so small anymore when all the other cars around you are the same size.

Auto manufacturers can put all kinds of luxury gadgets and amenities to make more profitable models.

A hummer drove by us the other day. First one I have seen on the road since awhile here in Seattle. It looked embarassingly out of place. I think the drivers either are going to sell it or move to Texas.

It is very unpatriotic to drive around with that vehicle as long as such a high percentage of profits for gasoline flow out of the country.

More and more people are beginning to get this even though they hate to admit it.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '[')b]we all know that public transit and suburbia is like oil and water, they do not mix

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he smaller cars suddenly don't look so small anymore when all the other cars around you are the same size.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')I live in the "U" district.
I'm quite sure you know what that is. I'll let the other forum members guess what "U" means.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'E')ven the much touted hybrid cars gulp more gasoline then the technologically primitive but lean cars of the late 1980's.

[joelcolorado]

I saw an engineer on TV and he had a Civic and had put on ugly metal tail and covered the wheels and put on a front air lower dams, etc. Changed the aerodynamics and went from 35 to 70 mpg. He was telling that the cars of 1921 have the same aerodynamics of todays cars.

I have read documentations about that before so no wonder we dont get better mileage.

[MarkJ]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'E')ven the much touted hybrid cars gulp more gasoline then the technologically primitive but lean cars of the late 1980's.