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The Financial Bubbles (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:17:45

The problem Anarky is that global money supply growth is not shrinking.

OECD Broad Money Supply Growth and Bond Yields

OECD Broad Money Supply Growth and Industrial Production


For best results click on full-size image. Thanks.

Image

You can clearly see that OECD money supply growth is creating excess liquidity that is the precursor of inflationary effects down the road. Also, OECD data excludes BRIC countries, for example, that also have very high levels of money supply growth (and inflation).

Image
Last edited by MrBill on Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:23:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Micki » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:21:36

What you are describing is a stagflationary environment which is more similar to inflationary environment than deflationary.
Consumer discreionaries will be dropping like a rock as people need to put their money on necessities.

I have no idea where you are getting this ideas that inflation already has been stopped in it's tracks just becasue certain asset classes are going down.
We are just in the first inning of the troubles and the fed has shown that they will do what it takes to prevent deflation.
In fact Bernanke has pretty much based his career on his deflation fighting abilities so it is fair to expect them to further open the spigots.

Secondly, I just have to disagree with your statemtn that asia is dependent on USA. China could let yuan float freely make all imports super cheap. They would make a prompt switch from exporting sweatshop workers to a consumer nation.

Lastly, none of your arguments convince gold could not fare well in either scenario as counter party risks increases.

But at the end of the day, it comes down to individual belief and I respect the fact that other people predict different outcomes.
Good luck.


PS, are you Johny_bloggsy by any chance????
This discussion felt so familliar and last time someone (j-bloggsy)touted deflation oil jumped $3. Just checked the market and oil is again up $3 and gold up [s]$8[/s]...$13. [smilie=eusa_drool.gif]
Last edited by Micki on Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:17:55, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby sjn » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:41:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anarky321', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', '
')The deflationary scenario you are suggesting is where cash is king. That will absolutely NOT apply to US$. If US$ is going down now, how on earths name is it going to strengthen once the financial debacle truly sets in.
There may be a contraction in US$ as a total, but foreigners will shun it and it won't be used for international trading.
Of course some other currencies may and will benefit, but a lot of money that would have been in US$ will have to go elsewhere.


first of all id like to ONCE AGAIN point out the difference between an increase in price of an item due to the increases in price of energy and intermediate goods used to make that item (also highly tied to energy) and the increase in the price of a good due to the increase in money supply which is the definition of inflation
You are wrong. Inflation is not an increase in the money supply, but an increase in the money supply relative to goods and services (aka available energy). Economics can not be reduced to monetarism or finance, but all economic activity takes energy, we've covered this before! :) Prices are rising because available energy is declining faster than the money supply is shrinking.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')if a jar of peanut butter increases in price $1 this is not inflation; you must look at supply/demand and the increased manufacturing costs; what is happening now in the US is NOT INFLATION, it is higher costs being passed onto the consumers and supply/demand; the effective money supply is SHRINKING FAST due to the utter meltdown of credit which CANNOT result in price inflation; the situation that is developing today is very very familiar to anyone that studied the great depression only it is even more serious and large-scale
The rise in the price of peanut butter can certainly be a manifestation of inflation. The money goes where there is demand and prices rise. A shrinking economy is not itself deflationary, remember you yourself pointed out that its a monetary phenomen. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')cash WILL be king; with the destruction of 90% of credit the inflation in prices was stopped cold; now as house prices tumble down every dollar is by default worth more; this is asset deflation; as the housing meltdown works itself fully into the economy other items will go down in price because with no credit around the amount of 'money' (real money + credit) has effectively severely contracted; although the dollar is falling in terms relative to other currencies it is strengthening in relation to itself; consumer demand in the US is falling hard, and the printing presses are NOT being run, which means cash is king because there's nothing else left
Nonsense. All currencies are weakening relative to energy and resources since we are hitting supply limits. You can't compare a fiat currency to itself and declare it strong, it has to be seen in the context of the work it can purchase.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')asset prices are going to decrease for everything; margins on all non-food and non-essential food items are going to get slaughtered like they already are; this will lead to very low corporate profits and numerous bancrupcies due to the inability to compete in such a low-margin environment profitably; this will lead to more layoffs, even lower house prices, as people can afford to buy less and less stuff
Yes, there will be layoffs and bankruptcies, and the price of non-essential and overpriced items (bubbly real estate) will fall. But people will still need to eat, use energy, and consume resources, the prices of things people need will rise. These continuing changes in prices are relative to each other but the overall levels and who can afford to eat will be determined by monetary policy. We know what that policy is as DP has pointed out.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')its a vicious cycle which will end in highly deflated commodity prices; and if you think Asia and the ME are going to chug along as briskly as they have with US in the pooper, they wont
Everybody is going to be in the pooper together. Those with resources should be better off but likely wars will take care of that.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')this is a global event and noone is getting out of this in the end with anything less than negative GDP growth; some will fair better than others (Russia, KSA and Brazil come to mind) but it is only a question of (short) time now
Agreed.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')the dollar is plummeting due to the belief that this will be largely contained to the US; obviously this is not the case; when that will become the mainstream opinion the dollar will rise against other currencies

imo
The dollar is plummeting because it has been debased more than the other currencies. The traders know this, it's not based on a false belief that everything is contained.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:42:44

Ditto MrBill. It seems to me that there is an enormous amount of money sloshing around in the world looking for a home.

The huge profits being earned by oil exporting nations have to go somewhere. They can go into cash in the currency of choice, equities, debt or commodities. There aren't a lot more choices. If the profits are plowed into building an Islamalopolis like Dhubai, then that is still sort of a commodities play.

So I am a rich Saudi and I have a billion dollars to deploy. Where will I put it? I already have a plane, 17 Mercedes Benz cars, 23 wives, 7 houses and a submarine on order (I would like to buy a U.S. Army tank, but the State Department says that they have had many such inquiries and it is not possible at this time). My cousin has lost many millions investing in U.S. equities. I look at long term interest rates on U.S. Treasuries and I don't see how they can do anything but go up. Equity markets in other countries are just too volatile for my billion dollars. What's left? A basket of commodities (including PMs) looks like as safe a store of value as anything I can think of. Not for 100% of my money, but for a significant chunk of it.

***

It seems to me that ANY energy shock is going to create a stagflationary environment. I'm sure there has been a lot of research on different models from the 1970s regarding what MIGHT have happened under different monetary policy scenarios.

I just don't see how any realistic scenario involving a rapid increase in energy prices can do anything except blunt economic growth while at the same time devaluing any fiat currency.
:)
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 08:53:14

Anecdotally, some Arab princes have been offering anybody and everybody their used jets, so that they can upgrade to the newest models. This is creating a glut of used planes throughout the ME. Especially as high fuel prices are curtailing the demand for charter airlines that might be the biggest market for those used aircraft.

Image

It is not just that "this too shall come to pass", but with regards to high energy prices that 'this too will have impacts'. We all live in the here and now, so if high energy prices are creating windfall profits today that money has to flow somewhere. Creating a new world order along the way!
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby alecifel » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:02:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')
So I am a rich Saudi and I have a billion dollars to deploy. Where will I put it? I already have a plane, 17 Mercedes Benz cars, 23 wives, 7 houses and a submarine on order (I would like to buy a U.S. Army tank, but the State Department says that they have had many such inquiries and it is not possible at this time).


Additional wheat for your people would be a good place to start...
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Micki » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:11:37

MrBill, from being somewhat pessimistic about the economy you have come out more and more sounding outright negative, with a hint of doomerism. Are you just trying ot fit in or have you come to some dark conclusions on the outcome of these events?
And if the latter is the case, have you noticed this spreading through the industry?
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby manu » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:31:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', 'M')rBill, from being somewhat pessimistic about the economy you have come out more and more sounding outright negative, with a hint of doomerism. Are you just trying ot fit in or have you come to some dark conclusions on the outcome of these events?
And if the latter is the case, have you noticed this spreading through the industry?


He is right in the middle of the pack of lemmings and trying to wriggle out of the mass before they all go flying over the cliff and take him with them.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby MrBill » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:38:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Micki', 'M')rBill, from being somewhat pessimistic about the economy you have come out more and more sounding outright negative, with a hint of doomerism. Are you just trying ot fit in or have you come to some dark conclusions on the outcome of these events?
And if the latter is the case, have you noticed this spreading through the industry?


That's a tough one Micki. I really try to stay neutral. But the facts are what they are. I have 195 charts and graphs now archived, and most of them paint a none too rosy picture for the global economy. Inflation has a good head of steam now. And collectively the world's central bankers lack the courage to do what needs to be done to get it back under control.

I do not really feel the need to fit in per se. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I think it is sad when the emotion of impending doom becomes paralyzing for some posters. There is always something that can be done, and if not then why worry about it?

Many of my posts have not been positive or negative, but have tried to offer a balanced view. Not too US-centric. Not trying to shift the blame for global imbalances elsewhere either. However, I have been somewhat surprised at the speed at which some events have taken place. I am more used to a trading environment where there are plenty of good entry and exit points, so a one way, run away market is not ideal for my own investment style.

Professionally I would say that credit conditions remain very tight, but on the other hand as our core, strategic investments are in oil, gas and power generation that we are actually one of the few areas still experiencing positive growth, and therefore although spreads are higher our cost of capital has remained about the same as interest rates were slashed. And only one investment bank actually cut credit lines, while several others have filled that funding gap.

So the current credit crisis and inflation is creating winners and losers. Perhaps more losers than winners, but it still depends critically where you are positioned in the economy. For us, so far so good. I have noticed, however, that long-term funding is getting harder and more expensive to find, so that creates a refinancing risk should conditions deteriorate further, and there is no reason to expect they will not.

But it is not exactly like we can take our marbles and go home. Up, down or sideways we are always fully invested. We can, however, reduce our leverage and that risk. We are buying more puts and writing more calls (equity collars) as insurance, and borrowing against the price of the puts to free up capital to diversify into other sectors and different securities. And we are working on our second convertible bond issue that is like a forward sale of equity, so again that money can be spread around to reduce our concentration risk. Taken all together that represents several billion dollars worth of portfolio rebalancing undertaken since this time last year. But make no mistake if the global economy tanks we are just as exposed to that as anyone. We all eat from the same rice bowl of global liquidity!
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Micki » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 09:52:16

A well articulated and diplomatic answer, as usual MrBill.
I was actually hoping for something more of deep inner secrets in a "kiss and tell" or a "revelations of a closet doomer". Maybe we can tempt them out later on or read them in your memoirs some years from now. Thanks anyway, your commentary is always welcome.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 11:16:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('alecifel', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')
So I am a rich Saudi and I have a billion dollars to deploy. Where will I put it? I already have a plane, 17 Mercedes Benz cars, 23 wives, 7 houses and a submarine on order (I would like to buy a U.S. Army tank, but the State Department says that they have had many such inquiries and it is not possible at this time).


Additional wheat for your people would be a good place to start...


I don't think that the Saudi prince in my example would think of those people as "his" people.

That, of course, is part of the problem.

In many ways, the House of Saud has been to Arabia like Britain was to India for so long--sort of like a parasite veiled in sophistication.
:)
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Golgo13 » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 13:26:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')he commodities "bubble" will never burst because demand is now essentially infinite, thanks to the long-running global development frenzy and soaring population.


Demand comes at a cost. If you can't afford it, they say that the demand is no longer there.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby anarky321 » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 14:30:35

"because demand is now essentially infinite"

no, no its not; people's desires are infinite but demand as measured by the ability of people to purchase goods has never been and never will be infinite for we live in a world of scarcity

its irrelevant that the population of the earth is growing; as long as our energy resources are staying at their current levels or even contracting, demand will follow in step

energy and its price defines the amount of demand and supply of everything; and neither are infinite or ever will be
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby anarky321 » Tue 01 Jul 2008, 14:40:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')
In many ways, the House of Saud has been to Arabia like Britain was to India for so long--sort of like a parasite veiled in sophistication.


i agree
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 02 Jul 2008, 13:09:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Golgo13', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')he commodities "bubble" will never burst because demand is now essentially infinite, thanks to the long-running global development frenzy and soaring population.


Demand comes at a cost. If you can't afford it, they say that the demand is no longer there.


Demand will go away only when people do.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 02 Jul 2008, 18:41:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anarky321', 'y')es, including precious metals
there are alot of gold bugs flying around this nest, but once it sinks in that we are in a deflationary environment there will be no more floor to support such high prices for them
the current upsurge in the prices of commodities is partly due to the widespread belief that inflation in the US is out of control; this is incorrect; money supply is being tightly regulated and credit has imploded just like we've been predicting for years, setting the stage for a spectacular deflationary meltdown that has only just begun
it makes little sense to hold gold in a deflationary downturn unless the country whose cash you hold is in risk of default (a rather remote although quite possible scenario for the US); it also makes little sense to hold others' debt as the risk of default rises dramatically in such conditions. thats my take on it; feel free to argue your point from the inflationary side of the argument
Where are you parking your capital in this Peak Oil + deflation environment?
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Commodities Signal Bubble Bursting

Unread postby Kingcoal » Wed 02 Jul 2008, 19:41:06

Current events:

Paulson announces that we need a way, using money from the Treasury, to allow investment banks to fail without adverse effects on the banking system.

Crude set another record today

As of today, we are now officially in a bear market

The ECB announced that they are probably going to raise rates tomorrow.

To me, it looks likely the market will go into free fall mode tomorrow. To say the least, things look really bad for the foreseeable future.
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Has the bubble popped?

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 02:16:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')If you were long silver, wheat and base metals at the start of 2008, you have my deepest sympathy. All these counters have become substantially cheaper in the last three months. Any bets you placed last year would have certainly made you richer. But things haven’t been quite that simple from 2008 onwards.

On Friday, Reuters Jefferies Commodity index fell for the ninth time in 10 days. Rogers International was down 16% while the benchmark S&P GSCI was down more than 8%.

With crude oil hogging the headlines, one tends to forget that metals have been especially pathetic performers in the last three months. Lead is 37% cheaper now than on January 1. Nickel has fallen 30% this year, the worst among all LME-traded metals. Even gold has remained flat on average after shooting up 10% in the beginning of 2008 while silver has barely budged.

Platinum fell 5% in July. Palladium fell for a 10th session on Friday. Natural gas has fallen more than twice the distance that oil has. The plunge from $13.50 to $9 marks a 33% reversal. Wheat is 7% cheaper than 2007, after shedding 8% since March.

With coffee, sugar, cotton, palladium, aluminum, platinum and copper all clocking single-digit price increases over the first quarter of 2008, the big question is has the commodity bubble deflated? And most important, who do you blame for your pain? The answer lies mired in a confusing slush of demand-supply fundamentals, market sentiment and threats from regulators.

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Re: Has the bubble popped?

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 02:32:50

[web]http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GSG#chart1:symbol=gsg;range=5y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined[/web]
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Re: Has the bubble popped?

Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Fri 01 Aug 2008, 03:08:10

When I bought my silver it was $5 and now it's something like $17.
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