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The Financial Bubbles (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: ARE WORLD BUBBLES PEAKING?

Unread postby skiwi » Mon 11 Jun 2007, 05:01:08

Hey I like those sort of words in bold :lol:

Reserve Bank steps in to force down NZ dollar
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Reserve Bank of New Zealand has taken the extraordinary step of intervening in the money market to bring down the value of the New Zealand dollar.

The central bank has confirmed it intervened in the foreign exchange market, saying it regarded current levels of the exchange rate as exceptional and unjustified.

The NZ dollar tumbled more than 1 per cent against the US dollar today as currency traders in Asia cited rumours in the market that the RBNZ was intervening to sell the kiwi...
..First NZ Capital's Brett Steven says the move may be unprecedented.

He thinks it is the first time the Reserve Bank has intervened since the currency was floated 22 years ago. He expects to see the dollar drop further as the European markets open overnight.

Finance Minister Michael Cullen said: "Today's action is a reminder to people if they over invest in the New Zealand dollar they could suffer losses..."
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Re: ARE WORLD BUBBLES PEAKING?

Unread postby Mircea » Mon 11 Jun 2007, 13:24:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'I') think the banks in general have been the smart ones doing the innovating through a whole barrage of dervitatives that have gotten risk off their balance sheets and into someone else's books. Who accepted those risks that banks did not want? Hedge funds, buyers of asset-backed securities, insurance cos., public asset & portfolio managers, etc. If I assume the underlying risk has not changed, just changed hands, then someone else is going to be left holding the bag if the liquidity bubble bursts. If I assume because risks were more widely dispersed, and yields were low as well as the cost of financing, then likely more risk was taken on (i.e. the cumulative risk is higher) making the system more prone to contagion than it might have been.


That's an indication to me of the further collapse of the dollar. A currency stops spreading wealth when it gets concentrated among a small select group. To make money using their money, that group then takes extraordinary risks while other users of the currency abandon it for gold or other currencies that are spreading wealth (like the Euro). I think it might have been Mankiw who said that, which would be odd since he is/was on Bush's White House economic advisory board. I don't guess Bush is paying much attention.
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Re: ARE WORLD BUBBLES PEAKING?

Unread postby Mircea » Mon 11 Jun 2007, 13:26:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('skiwi', 'T')he central bank has confirmed it intervened in the foreign exchange market, saying it regarded current levels of the exchange rate as exceptional and unjustified.


Maybe George Soros is playing the currency speculation game again. I guess he needs more money to dump into Billary's campaign.
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Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 14:10:39

This article in The Telegraph (UK) caught my attention because "peak oil" is the first two words.
In typically journalistic fashion it is a mish-mash of opposing views, which I think on the whole plays down peak oil. But they do admit that oil is a commodity which is not going to go down in price.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Peak oil, peak metals, and this year peak food. Every bookshop has a corner warning that mankind will soon outrun the basic resources of the globe.

It was ever thus. Variants of the theme emerge at the top of each commodity super-cycle, only to be deferred for another 20 years or so as new supply comes on-stream and technology outwits the pessimists. Shortage can turn to glut very fast once inflation forces central banks to hit the brakes.
<snip>
"Even at this price the oil companies still can't find any supply, which tells you that they are catching a serious crab," says Horsnell.

"Oil has been going up a dollar a month for four years. It's a gradual upping of the pressure and I don't see anything to stop it," he says.

The peak oil theory claims that the world is depleting crude at 30bn barrels each year, but adding just 10bn in discoveries. Depletion is running at 4 per cent a year (official) or 6 per cent (peakists).

"A supply-side crunch in the period to 2015, involving an abrupt escalation in oil prices, cannot be ruled out," said the International Energy Agency in its Outlook report.
<snip>
Once the emerging market boil is lanced we will find out where the core equilibrium price for oil, coal, iron, zinc, and soya beans really lies. Then we can strap up for the second leg super-cycle. Next time to the peaks.


I think the final paragraph means to say don't worry.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 16:03:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')'ll bite Andrew. Maybe, if we have financial collapse induced by the developing credit crunch then demand might weaken. Otherwise no.

Yes, I think a recession in the U.S.A. is on the cards next year (even without a financial collapse) so pressure on commodities prices could be downwards. I still think the trend for oil is up though.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Concerned » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 16:25:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')'ll bite Andrew. Maybe, if we have financial collapse induced by the developing credit crunch then demand might weaken. Otherwise no.

Yes, I think a recession in the U.S.A. is on the cards next year (even without a financial collapse) so pressure on commodities prices could be downwards. I still think the trend for oil is up though.


Oil coming down in price is only going to happen in a few scenarios IMO

1. Demand destruction e.g. depression massive financial collapse not just a recession which is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth

2. A bird flu or other disease wiping out hundreds of millions across the globe

3. Aftermath of a huge war that kills hundreds of millions across the globe

4. We find very cheap cold/hot fusion or other alternate energy cheaper than dirty coal in todays prices.

Other than that I would expect oil prices to continue to rise.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 17:38:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '
')Other than that I would expect oil prices to continue to rise.

Yes. Oil is certainly special.

Although I don't think it's likely, a massive monetary deflation might do it also? (which would go with your point one, anyway).
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby cube » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 19:09:07

Do you know how you can tell if there's a financial bubble? It's easy.

When security guards, taxi drivers, housewives and grandmothers start giving you financial advise. I have yet to hear any of those people encouraging me to get into commodities so therefore there is no bubble yet. :P
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby mkwin » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 20:13:48

There is 7.5 million barrels of new capacity coming online next year but it a won't hit a peak production until 2009-2010, which could be when the recession really bites. So short-term, yes I think the oil price could fall back to the $70-80 range. So that is the time for everyone to buy the futures contracts!

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 20:14:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'D')o you know how you can tell if there's a financial bubble? It's easy.

When security guards, taxi drivers, housewives and grandmothers start giving you financial advise. I have yet to hear any of those people encouraging me to get into commodities so therefore there is no bubble yet. :P


A classic truth indeed.

In the winter of 2000 I was waiting for a bus in the centre of the Finnish city where I live, and a middle-aged woman with a mixed-age, dressed-up group was talking about her son's stock investments: "And he's knows what he's doing", she said. Some months later kapumf.

This summer I heard excited pub-talk of people getting into buy-to-let (there has been a bit of a housing bubble here too). Fucking classic.

I'll wait for them to excited about PMs. Then I'll know it's time to move (not that that's my only source of sentiment, of course).
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 20:21:55

I agree with Concerned but I also would add one more

5. Failiure of the electrical grid and/or communication system.

Since money now mostly exists electroncially, without electronic transfers we won't have the same level of business activity.

All indications are that the Fed and ECB are stepping up money creation at an exponential rate (Fed expanding the money base up to $100 billion in the next few weeks, and the ECB at times in 2007 expanded by ana even larger amount).
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 16 Dec 2007, 20:25:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'T')here is 7.5 million barrels of new capacity coming online next year but it a won't hit a peak production until 2009-2010, which could be when the recession really bites. So short-term, yes I think the oil price could fall back to the $70-80 range. So that is the time for everyone to buy the futures contracts!

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects


Surely you don't really expect us to believe those CERA projections???

All indications are, although I am not an expert on this, is that depletion from older fields is accelerating. It may be necessary to bring about 5 million of new production on line in 2008 just to stay we are in total production.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 05:54:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')opper looks like it has topped out and is now is a series of downward corrections. Copper is a useful proxy for world growth, and as futures markets are forward looking they are useful for making predictions about what markets think about world growth - especially Asian growth - looking forward say 6 to 12-months.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Image



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')old look very toppish up here. Look at the triangular flag formation developing since the highs were recently reached. The next move is likely lower to the $754 area. That would correspond to a stronger US dollar and weaker euro. I am targeting $1.4040.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Image


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think we will see new highs in Brent next year, but the chances now of closing above $100 this year, yet, look slimmer. However, it depends somewhat on what happens in Iraq between the Turkish and the Kurds at the moment. That is a new area of uncertainty that affects exports out of N. Iraq. However, I would still expect crude to dip towards $85 now. Maybe $80.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') Image


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o I do not think it is unreasonable to speak about commodities being in a bubble at the moment as they have risen very strongly over the past 5-years. However, that rally was caused due to strong world growth - especially in Asia - so those gains can go into reverse not only as more supply from new investment comes on-line, but if that growth is threatened by a severe economic slowdown or recession in the United States. Commodities cannot rally into a vacuum!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Image


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') like to use EURJPY as a proxy for global risk taking as the yen is the classic carry trade into higher risk assets, and using the euro instead of the US dollar strips out any USD weakness. Although EURJPY has recovered since central bankers started intervening, supporting that risk taking behavior, it is off its highs as well and looks set to continue lower. The yen carry trade may not have completely unwound, yet, as liquidity in US dollars, euros and Sterling are still quite tight, so it makes sense that at least some traders prefer to fund themselves in yen versus sell assets into weak markets. But I would still expect us to smash through the previous low at 150 again as those positions unwind.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Concerned » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 07:43:08

For the sake of clarity, I will quantify what I mean by coming down in price.

At the beginning of this year I commented on MrBills thread regards the price of Crude at the end of 2007 and I estimated $65

I really don't think we will see that price or even $70 unless some truly shocking earth shattering events arise.

I agree that oil could come down to the $80 range but not much below that. As I speak oil is at $91.20 BBL it has come of recent highs, an Iran strike is cooling due to reports they stopped trying to develop a nuclear bomb in 2003.

Increasingly the oil we are consuming is the hard to get stuff which costs more to extract.

In a BAU scenario high oil prices are here to stay.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby mkwin » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 08:13:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'T')here is 7.5 million barrels of new capacity coming online next year but it a won't hit a peak production until 2009-2010, which could be when the recession really bites. So short-term, yes I think the oil price could fall back to the $70-80 range. So that is the time for everyone to buy the futures contracts!

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects


Surely you don't really expect us to believe those CERA projections???

All indications are, although I am not an expert on this, is that depletion from older fields is accelerating. It may be necessary to bring about 5 million of new production on line in 2008 just to stay we are in total production.


They are not CERA projections but they are TheOilDrum's project to document all the new supply projects coming online. The figures are taken from IOC and NOC publications showing what projects they are working on.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 08:25:05

Thanks for the charts, MrBill. Who are the quotes from?

The copper price is quite volatile, is there any systematic seasonal variation and is that degree of volatility normal? Anyway, it's clearly on the way down at the moment.

Do you see any signs of an oncoming recession from these data?
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby MrBill » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 09:52:33

MrBill writes:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')i, sorry the quotes are just my own. I find when I post this charts that it distorts the screen size, so I just wanted to frame the comments so that they can be read in one line without having to scroll. I would like to know how to size charts in photobucket.com or elsewhere before I post them to avoid this problem.

I have to agree that the difference between available supply and potential demand is such that the dynamics for higher crude prices are quite different from metals and agricultural commodities per se. I think that available supply for these other commodities should react to higher prices, and even over-supply if there is a full-blown recession.

However, as we know crude is a different animal this time around due to limited worldwide production and excess global demand - two-thirds of new demand growth coming from Chindia alone. Therefore, if you buy the decoupling theory - I do not - that Asia could keep growing rapidly even if there is a slowdown in the USA then demand increases should only possibly slow without any 'real demand destruction' other than 'potential demand that does not materialize'. Potential demand is harder to measure.

Those new finds in the coastal waters off Brazil are a minimum of two kilometers under the water and then they need to drill through at least another one kilometer of hard salt and rock before coming into the oil zone. That isn't likely to happen before 2010 at least. In the meantime the timing of that announcement comes on the heels of some very disappointing operating results from Petrobras, so hides some harsh realities about the efficiency of some of these NOCs.

We know that VZL is hiding production shortfalls at PDVSA. Perhaps as much as 1 mbpd. The situation over at PEMEX is not much better as the Mexican government has used them as a cash cow for general operating expenditures and have re-invested very little in exploration and development or maintaining their oil infrastructure. So we find that despite near $100 per barrel that these NOCs are simply not up to the task, but multinationals are effectively blocked from these new finds or even from maturing fields where their expertise is sorely needed.

But even there a global recession might take a good $25 per barrel off the headline price. Swings of +/- 25% are quite dangerous for planning purposes. Policy makers are liable to come to the conclusion that it was all a great deal to do about nothing and therefore fail to plan for permanently higher prices.

Also, and this is key, many governments are still subsidizing energy imports. This alone counts for millions of barrels per day of extra demand. And critically this is not only bad for these governments import bill, but blocks diversification away from imported oil and so exacerbates the problem over time. Wipe out energy subsidies and replace them with tax rebates or direct financial aid to the poorest and not only do you eliminate market distorting signals, but you reduce demand as well.

The reason I do not buy the decoupling argument is that all the countries that are accumulating the excess foreign exchange reserves - OPEC and non-OPEC oil producers and Asian manufacturers - have their currencies either pegged to the US dollar or they are actively intervening in foreign exchange markets to sell their local currency and buy US dollars. This is not only inflationary as global money supply increases, but shows how dependent these exporters are on the USA at the moment.

That is not to say they can never diversify away from US capital markets, but you can bet in the short-term - 2008 at least - that they would face a double dilemma if they tried to let their currencies float at the same time as global growth slowed not just in the USA, but in the UK and EU as well. Ouch, not only would their currencies become less export competitive, but those countries would be importing less due to slower economic growth, and in the case of the US and UK falling housing prices. And shifting those export receipts into the eurozone just makes the euro more over-valued than it already is, while punishing European manufacturers - especially in France and Italy - even more.

As for a recession in the USA it is all but inevitable! There is no question about that. However, define a true recession? A technical recession of falling growth two-quarters in a row - which is the official definition of a recession - might be narrowly avoided. But at what cost to future stability? It is clear that Helicopter Ben and his side-kick Power Ranger Paulson could avoid a technical recession simply by dropping real rates below zero and pumping up another bubble. Probably in the emerging markets, but also in energy, metals and commodities as well. Growth anywhere might just produce enough global economic activity that benefits US firms that export or have operations abroad enough to avoid slipping into an outright recession. That is a big if? But that would be very inflationary!

Just as worryingly is that it does not just have to be Team USA that ignites global inflation. It can also come from any number of central banks and governments that try to offset slower growth in the US, UK and EU by operating their own printing presses. Yes, technically only the US government and the Fed can produce US dollar zone inflation, but excess money supply growth elsewhere can cause external inflation and that can filter into imported US inflation from higher energy prices for example. If the Fed took a tightening precaution against that imported inflation all would be fine, but what are the chances of that happening when the US is in or near recession? None as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps that is why I would be concerned about the forward price of copper falling. Traders are aware that the US dollar is under pressure. They also see the inflationary pressures building in the system. And still they are liquidating copper longs. They can only have concluded that future global growth prospects have also moderated. Are they right? Dunno? But buy, Buy, BUY may have turned into wait and see or wait and buy on dips?

By the way, any slowdown originating out of the USA and spreading to the UK and EU is bound to trigger a drop in export income for China. I can imagine the policy response to that will be to increase export volumes by dropping prices and sacraficing margins. In economic jargon that is producing to cover your variable costs while ignoring your fixed costs. That is going to be a world of economic hurt for other manufacturers. Say those that do not live in a communist country and have to cover their own long-term costs including the cost of their capital. Or those that have shareholders that can dump their shares and starve them of access to capital markets.

The China Effect while global markets are booming can be quite different than that effect when they are slowing down and literally exporting deflation in the form of excess capacity! ; - )


Again, sorry about the sizing issue!
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby cube » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 19:42:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andrew_S', '.')..
The copper price is quite volatile, is there any systematic seasonal variation and is that degree of volatility normal? Anyway, it's clearly on the way down at the moment.

Do you see any signs of an oncoming recession from these data?
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Copper is jokingly called the "barometer" of the economy. It is very sensitive to construction so whenever the economy goes down --> construction activity goes down --> copper goes down.

Back in 1929 Jesse Livermore (speculator King) had a "gut" feeling the market was over-bought. He placed a fraction of his money down, trying to "short" the market. The first "indicator" of confirmation of economic weakness was when the price of copper buckled. Once that happened his confidence was assured and he then gambled the rest of his entire fortune shorting the stock market on the margin. A couple months later everything else went down. After the stock market crashed he had $100 million added to his name.
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Re: Are commodities a bubble ready to burst?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Mon 17 Dec 2007, 21:20:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mkwin', 'T')here is 7.5 million barrels of new capacity coming online next year but it a won't hit a peak production until 2009-2010, which could be when the recession really bites. So short-term, yes I think the oil price could fall back to the $70-80 range. So that is the time for everyone to buy the futures contracts!

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects


Surely you don't really expect us to believe those CERA projections???

All indications are, although I am not an expert on this, is that depletion from older fields is accelerating. It may be necessary to bring about 5 million of new production on line in 2008 just to stay we are in total production.


They are not CERA projections but they are TheOilDrum's project to document all the new supply projects coming online. The figures are taken from IOC and NOC publications showing what projects they are working on.


I'm sure that posters at the Oil Drum would be very surprised at your interpretation of their posting at Wikpedia. I don't see any post at the Oil Drum link validating the CERA estimate, and you didn't mention the other less optimistic projections.

All TOD is saying is that these reports were widely published in the media.
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