Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Canary in the Mineshaft Thread

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby BigTex » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 18:14:27

A better question is probably which countries have ALREADY failed as a result of peak oil-related factors.

Nigeria
Iraq
Afghanistan

Given that the effects of peak oil are so diffused, it's reasonable to conclude that virtually any failed state from here out has failed, in part, because of a peak oil-related cause.

On the TO FAIL list:

Mexico
Venezuela
Iran
Saudi Arabia

Being an oil producer is likely to be just as dangerous as being an oil importer in the future, since Iraq-type engagements are likely to continue as the oil wealth under weak political control will be subject to neighborhood (and cross town) bullies.

For some oil producers, the future will be a bit like driving a nice car through a really bad neighborhood.
:)
User avatar
BigTex
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3858
Joined: Thu 03 Aug 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Graceland

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 18:51:41

I think neither the richest or the poorest countries. The former have cushioning, the latter don't have anything to lose. I think the first to fail are ones in the middle; Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Portugal, Greece, etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'B')eing an oil producer is likely to be just as dangerous as being an oil importer in the future, since Iraq-type engagements are likely to continue as the oil wealth under weak political control will be subject to neighborhood (and cross town) bullies.
Which, taking this conversation out of topic, reinforces my theory there's little the everyday person can do to protect its compound full of supplies.
User avatar
VMarcHart
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1644
Joined: Mon 26 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Now overpopulating California

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby syrac818 » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 19:19:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'I') think neither the richest or the poorest countries. The former have cushioning, the latter don't have anything to lose. I think the first to fail are ones in the middle; Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Portugal, Greece, etc..


Ummm, how is Brazil, an energy independent nation on track to become a net exporter with some of the largest new fields in decades, on track to fail?
User avatar
syrac818
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed 01 Jun 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby Hagakure_Leofman » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 19:46:47

Hasn't the USA fulled tanked already?

I heard on the radio yesterday that your housing market hasn't fallen that far (relatively speaking) since the great depression. People owing more than their houses are worth.

Of course, the corporate media don't want to say anything scary to the 'consumers' - or they will lose out themselves. Remember that the people who are providing all of the 'public' information about this stuff have highly vested interests. Especially vested in keeping things from getting worst (at least in rhetoric, if not reality).

Remember that the great depression didn't happen over night. It took years for people to realize the sorry state of things. Each month, worst and worst news.
User avatar
Hagakure_Leofman
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2008, 04:00:00
Location: out dispatching ronan...

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby SoylentGreen » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 19:54:36

Iran,theyre gonna be bloomin in radioactive kosher mushrooms real soon.
User avatar
SoylentGreen
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun 25 May 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 26 Jun 2008, 20:56:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('syrac818', 'U')mmm, how is Brazil, an energy independent nation on track to become a net exporter with some of the largest new fields in decades, on track to fail?
1. That oil field is owned, or partly owned, by a government with a long standing corruption reputation.
2. If it hits the fan, it's just a matter of time before another coalition sets the Brazilian people free, while it takes over that offshore platform.
3. Brazil, like many mid-sized economies, are at the mercy of the Dollar, Euro, exports, imports, etc. If it hits the fan, they don't have enough cushioning, and paradoxically, have too much to lose.

My 2 cents.
User avatar
VMarcHart
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1644
Joined: Mon 26 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Now overpopulating California

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby Hagakure_Leofman » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 04:06:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cbxer55', 'H')ows about just one state that almost solely depends on tourism for it's survival. And practically everything has to be shipped or flown in, food, clothes, fuel, etc. They are starting to panic.


Maybe those pacific islands that rely on tourists watching them perform cargo cult ceremonies, will go back to performing them for real. Only rather than WW2 fighter models planes for religious symbols, they'll adopt the Hawaiian t-shirt and tourist cameras as items to worship in the hope their owners will return.

:lol:
User avatar
Hagakure_Leofman
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed 02 Jan 2008, 04:00:00
Location: out dispatching ronan...

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 04:29:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', 'I') think neither the richest or the poorest countries. The former have cushioning, the latter don't have anything to lose. I think the first to fail are ones in the middle; Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Portugal, Greece, etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'B')eing an oil producer is likely to be just as dangerous as being an oil importer in the future, since Iraq-type engagements are likely to continue as the oil wealth under weak political control will be subject to neighborhood (and cross town) bullies.
Which, taking this conversation out of topic, reinforces my theory there's little the everyday person can do to protect its compound full of supplies.


I would just add that many of the poorest countries have already "failed" before peak so it would be hard to say that they failed because of peak. So we do have to look at those middle countries not because peak will not have devistating effects in the already failed but because those countries have already failed.

I really think we could see Mexico go down as one of the first victims since its stability to date has been purchased primarily by its oil wealth and that source seems to be drying up very quickly. In addition to this the anti-immigrant feeling in the US combined with the slowing American economy is resulting in less money being sent back to families in Mexico. There is a vast underclass that could go to the streets, there are armed groups (drug cartels) which could become local warlords, there are local sepreratist movements (Chiapas) and there are probably other destabilizing factors escaping me at the moment.
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
User avatar
wisconsin_cur
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4576
Joined: Thu 10 May 2007, 03:00:00
Location: 45 degrees North. 883 feet above sealevel.
Top

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby cube » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 05:17:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hagakure_Leofman', '.')...
Remember that the great depression didn't happen over night. It took years for people to realize the sorry state of things. Each month, worst and worst news.
Everybody knows what happened to the stock market in 1929
however....
It actually took 3 years for the stock market to finally hit rock bottom.
No doubt every step lower people were saying:
"it will bounce back up!"

It takes awhile for hope to turn into despair. :twisted:
cube
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat 12 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Top

Re: Canary In The Coal Mine - Which Countries Will Fail Firs

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 27 Jun 2008, 10:44:09

October 29th was far from the only factor in causing the GD, too. Weimar hyperinflation and ultimately defaulting on WWI reparations, for instance.

TOD had a great Drumbeat post with page after page of rosy outlooks from late '29/early '30. I mean, denial on parade.

Mexico eased up on Pemex a few years ago - originally snapped up 60% of revenue in taxes, Calderon convinced Parliament to bring it down to 40%, to, you know, spur exploration and development. Since the only big prospects for Mexico seem to be UDW fields they need outside assistance with - which will face massive political opposition, they still celebrate the day they kicked the gringo oil corps out of the country in '38 - and the recent report that all of Pemex's windfall has been plowed into maintaining the subsidies - they - and we - are truly in a world of tamale squeezings.
Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
And let me tell you something: I dig your work.
User avatar
TheDude
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4896
Joined: Thu 06 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia

Previous

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron