[falser]

I really hope there is no government bailout this time. Airlines don't deserve to be federally subsidized with taxpayer money (Amtrak should though). Let them die off, or force them to raise airfares, but don't give them more money to piss away.

[Eli]

I think there should be a massive government bail out.

The US Gov. should bail out all the airlines and then bail out Ford and GM then the Gov. should bail out it self, wha la problem solved.



Bankruptcy used to be a lot more fatal in the past. Companys that went into it were highly stigmatized and rarely came back. Now we have whole industrys filing bankruptcy? It is funny back in the 50s people and corporations who filed bankruptcy were treated like lepers. Now it is common.

This really is the first sign of true demand destruction form peak oil. The demand destruction that we are facing is not on the level of the guy deciding not to fill up his car although it is that too. The demand destruction peak oil brings is huge on the level of whole industrys no longer being able to turn a profit.

That quote that BP posted says it all.

[Tyler_JC]

No bailout will mean tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands) of former pensioners eating cat food.

The government pension bailout organization is very underfunded.

If Delta falls through the cracks, it could severly drain that federal agency.

If GM and Ford fall through the cracks...it's game over. The government would need to raise billions of dollars to pay for these pension plans, or just let the people starve.

The news that 2 major airlines declared bankruptcy on the same day should scare us. There are some serious problems in the economy that are being covered up by the TV-Economists.

Granted a lot of this is a scam to dump the pensions on the government, but with Katrina relief and The War, the government doesn't exactly have billions of extra dollars sitting around to start fixing these pension plans.

If the market takes a major downturn, more companies will end up in Delta's boat. And that boat is sinking... (or falling out of the sky at terminal velocity as the case may be)

[SoothSayer]

I have been wondering for some time how a progressive shortfall in energy availability and/or exorbitant price rises would pan out in real life.

Here in the UK I have now heard of a real day-to-day example of the effects of high energy costs - in this case, caused by the huge increases in natural gas prices here.

It's all to do with public swimming pools!

Their energy bills have soared to unacceptable levels. The efects of this apparently include:
- reduced pool water temperature
- reduced working hours
- staff layoffs
- closure of the less efficient / less profitable pools
- higher admittance prices

I feel that this mundane example is an indicator of what might be to come in many industries. Extrapolating this single example, as energy becomes more expensive, I suspect that we will see:
- increased unemployment
- gradual reduction of services
- phasing out of inefficient systems - possibly without replacements being provided
- increased prices to access services

This could lead to a widening gap between the haves and have-nots.

Some families will have access to most faciliies & services as usual - although they might have to drive (!) further and pay more.

Others will suddenly find themselves without work, and with reduced access to services, especially locally.

This unpleasant partitioning of society could be quite rapid - any period of sustained high energy prices could trigger layoffs and closures within 3 - 6 months.

Employees of energy intensive, low proft industries should be thinking of retraining pronto. (This assumes that people can recognise that THEIR industry falls into such a category. I doubt that many swimming pool staff had ever considered the energy use of their businesses ...)

[clv101]

I'd never really thought about swimming pools. Is there any swimming pool industry data available on energy use or swiming tickets or pool closure over the whole country?

[SoothSayer]

I heard the tale on a BBC Radio 4 program ... the BBC may be able to provide the data.

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '
')I feel that this mundane example is an indicator of what might be to come in many industries. Extrapolating this single example, as energy becomes more expensive, I suspect that we will see:
- increased unemployment
- gradual reduction of services
- phasing out of inefficient systems - possibly without replacements being provided
- increased prices to access services

[Ludi]

So many people live from paycheck to paycheck any rise in energy prices will be a severe hardship on them. Many will (and are) simply adding to consumer debt using their credit cards to pay for energy, but this can't go on forever. Tough times ahead.

[loghomebuilder]

Quote from Raxozanne

"Will the government actually increase spending on alternative energies or will subsidies be cut in the face of this squeeze? Most renewable enterprises such as wave energy generation projects are funded at least partially by the government without which they would fall over commercially. I feel that surely they wouldn't cut subsidies to the only partial lifeline they have but you can never be too sure..."


While it is possible that the government MAY increase spending on renewable resources it will be minimal at best. We are not saying all politicians are evil or in the know, but some are. And those that are in higher positions of power for the most part are there to consolidate that power. They grant security through the removal of freedoms. Or in other words we trade our freedom for the illusion of security. This in turn is ultimatly greater power given to those in power.

As such we can safetly assume that most any move towards renewable energy will be token, too little, and too late. We are headed for a crash. It will not be a suprise to leadership. It will be intentional. It will be for the purpose of bringing order out of chaos. Do not expect the goverment to save the day. They will be doing the oposite. They will intentionally prevent real progress from being made.

All you have to do is look at the twin towers. Two airplanes fly into the twin towers. The second one was how long after the first. 15 or 20 minutes later? In order for this to occur, someone at very high levels of government had to order the air force to stand down, to break standard protocol. Neither of those airplans should ever have been permited to make it into the city. I.E. it was at minimum permitted.

Why is that? Well ask you Senators and Congressmen how many of them actually READ the patriot act, a massive intrusive law, before it was read. I believe Ron Paul of Texas was one of only a few men who refused to sign a law he wasn't first given the opportunity to read. Sounds pretty logical to me. So why did all these other men and women in government not deem it important to read the law to see what it said before signing it into existence?

Do not expect government to save the day. Rather expect government to postpone, put off, and even in some case prevent new solutions from being developed.

[pup55]

Swimming pools

I understand that in the US, this is also in decline for the reasons listed above, per this article.

Also, there is the worry about contamination/cleanliness etc.

[SoothSayer]

The BBC radio program also mentioned that the NEW pools were having less of a problem.

I assume that this was mainly due to increased customer interest.

They are also probably have more efficient insulation etc.

Perhaps peak Oil will encourage all the old pools, cinemas, hospitals etc to be replaced by nice modern efficient ones?

We can but hope!

[strider3700]

Solar water heating for private pools makes a lot of financial sense just about everywhere. There must be a company out there trying to push solar heating of public pools. If not there should be.

[TorrKing]

Someone I know placed a big, black plastic tank on the roof of his cottage douche. He fills it in the morning and in the evening the water sometimes is so hot that he have to mix in some cold water to stand using it.

Torjus Gaaren

[meekoil]

When I opened this thread the google ad was for swimmingpoolquotes.com.

How funny is that!

[SoothSayer]

See also: http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=485552006

Some Scottish hospitals are reacting to high energy costs by:
- increasing their energy budget (making cuts elsewhere?)
- installing more modern hot water & heating systems
- adding heat recovery technology to buildings

The general opinion seems to be that either the patients and/or the taxpayer will be hurt by the increased hospital energy costs.

They also observed that EVERYONE is hit by these rising energy costs.

I think that this is another vote for a slide towards a grubbier, tattier society as energy costs rise.

The upside is that anyone with investments in suppliers of energy efficient equipment will do well!

[truecougarblue]

Adolescent humor.....

Torjus said "douche", hee hee hee.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('truecougarblue', 'A')dolescent humor.....

Torjus said "douche", hee hee hee.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('truecougarblue', 'A')dolescent humor.....

Torjus said "douche", hee hee hee.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emersonbiggins', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('truecougarblue', 'A')dolescent humor.....

Torjus said "douche", hee hee hee.

[halliwell]

Though this article is presented in a way that feeds to the conspiracy theorists in such a way that I personally wish it were re-written in a different format, I still wish to present this to you guys and hear your opinion:
link
I would sincerely appreciate anyone informed enough to back up or debunk any of this.
On the assumption that this is conjecture: Nevermind. On the assumption that this is truth: Well, there's your orchestration for so much, and as well probably PO's biggest fan/observer.