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Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby Duende » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 15:49:45

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes 100% of it go towards earning more income?

A greedy developer bent on exploitation doesn't have to spend 100% percent of his income toward earning more income (beside, that's what venture capital is for). The profit motive alone guarantees he will out-compete the preservationist.

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat is why after all these centuries we still have undeveloped coves: developing them all would be a waste of effort.

Now you're just playing dumb. That's what infinite economic growth is for - you should know that better than most on this board.

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')imilarly, the profits from development flow to society, not development. What the enriched individuals choose to do with their share is up to them.

To society? No... I'm afraid the "enriched individuals" you discuss above is the developer from my example.
"Where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?" -Thomas Huxley
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby Alcassin » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 16:35:37

@Namenick:

In that case, we are on the same page. I needed some clarity.

@Duende:

It clearly doesn't help, you can argue, but LS is not getting the message, because he sees everything in a perfect equasion.
He absolutely doesn't know 101 of ecology.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is this last reason why so much land is still untouched today, apathy.


50% of land surface has been changed by humans. If you want to get another 50% then comes the doom... Especially when more than 30% of the land surface is ice-cap, desert or tundra.

LoneSnark:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')phytoplancton is crucial in the ocean life food-chain and it's going to perish. [citation needed]"


Link

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow, I disagree; I don't think the species in question were of any value. They were seamlessly replaced with other heartier species and so I would not waste my money preserving them.


Liebig's law. We have more and more chances to be doomed. You are perfect example what the system is like, and see no dangers in business in usual.

We know how the land in developed countries look like, and the ecological footprint of that countries...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't think the species in question were of any value.


Only when the last tree is cut;
Only when the last river is polluted;
Only when the last fish is caught;
Only then will they realize that you cannot eat money.

Image

Good hunting, true safari... how much are they worth?
Last edited by Alcassin on Fri 08 Feb 2008, 16:58:30, edited 1 time in total.
Peak oil is only an indication and a premise of limits to growth on a finite planet.
Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby Alcassin » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 16:53:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')lcassin these two are walking advertisements for doom.


It reminds me the advertisement of Titanic: "UNSINKABLE!" :-D

My signature expresses views of those two :)
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby namenick » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 18:21:05

pstarr wrote: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Conversely it has been observed that these prized mushrooms do not appear in the forest that are less than 40 years old.


Wrong, wrong, wrong again pistar. Chanterrelles grow in stands of trees that are as young as about 20 years from my experience. So do Pines, hedgehog mushrooms, boletes, cauliflower fungus, and numerous others. And as well, the Morels spring up in abundance the year following a burn.

Do you think you are some kind of authority on these isses pistar? You should really check out your facts before you go making a further ass of yourself again. You 'know' I'm not going to let you get away with anything don't you? ;-)
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby namenick » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 18:36:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'p')starr wrote: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Conversely it has been observed that these prized mushrooms do not appear in the forest that are less than 40 years old.


Wrong, wrong, wrong again pistar. Chanterrelles grow in stands of trees that are as young as about 20 years from my experience. So do Pines, hedgehog mushrooms, boletes, cauliflower fungus, and numerous others. And as well, the Morels spring up in abundance the year following a burn.

Do you think you are some kind of authority on these isses pistar? You should really check out your facts before you go making a further ass of yourself again. You 'know' I'm not going to let you get away with anything don't you? ;-)
did I say anything about morels? And what's twenty years in the life a forest?


Hahaha! No you didn't say anything about Morels but you did say that Chanterelles grew only when the forest became 40 years old. What a pathetic piece of shit you are to try to get out of it that way. Hahahahahahahaha! You don't even have the balls to admit you're wrong! I'm finished with you now because you do nothing but waste my time. ;-)
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby LoneSnark » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 23:31:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he profit motive alone guarantees he will out-compete the preservationist.

For coves? Like I said, society only has use for so many LNG ports.

Preservationists and developers are not in direct competition. All the preservationists are doing is driving up the cost of coves. If the developers can figure out a way to import LNG that costs less than the money preservationists are willing to pay then the cove is saved.

It is competing marginal human desires: the desire for even more imported energy and the desire to protect a little more of nature. If society as a whole is willing to pay more wrecking the cove than it is willing to pay to save it, only then is it destroyed. As we get fewer untouched coves the marginal value of protecting them grows. As we get ever more LNG ports the marginal value of building more of them falls. Therefore, we have a system to determine how many coves are preserved and how many import Natural Gas.

Your objection is not with the system; the system is elegant. Your objection is that most humans disagree with you and refuse to waste their hard earned money to save some bacteria or plant species that is indistinguishable from thousands of others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's what infinite economic growth is for - you should know that better than most on this board.

'infinity' cannot be found on planet earth. So, to suggest we should consider 'infinite' anything when holding an honest discussion about land allocation in the year 2008 is indefensible.

And, in the year 2008 there is only so much economic activity taking place, and determining where it should take place is a very down to earth question with an answer that is technically incapable of having "everywhere" as a correct answer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o society? No... I'm afraid the "enriched individuals" you discuss above is the developer from my example.

Yes, the developer. The owner. The people that made the investment. Which, in todays society, is likely to be some public employee retirement fund, at which point the profits are likely to be spent on non-investment goods (since they are now elderly) such as medical care, expensive trips, and gifts for the grandkids.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')any of the species we've brought to extinction (tigers, giraffes, great blue whales, etc.) were already the strongest in their habitats and can not be replaced by anything other than misery.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the creatures you name are extinct; they aren't even found in the industrialized world. I will stipulate that human poverty breeds extinctions among large mammals. I will not accept that non-poor human societies behave similarly.

Alcassin, no where in your link was 'extinction' mentioned. It also fails to mention changes since 2004; which is odd, since it was published in 2006.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')We know how the land in developed countries look like, and the ecological footprint of that countries...
Yes, we do know. It turns out the developed countries of this planet are very good stewards of their environments. Air, water, and land pollution is setting new lows. Set assides are setting new records, and until recently forest growth far exceeded extraction every year (it may still, I just have not looked). This is thanks to the application of modern technology to enable the use of genetically engineered fast growing trees on tree farms, freeing millions of acres of forrest from lumber production.

Now, again, I will stipulate that poor countries are very hard on their environments. But the only solution I know of is to end poverty.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby JohnDenver » Fri 08 Feb 2008, 23:58:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'M')any of the species we've brought to extinction (tigers, giraffes, great blue whales, etc.)

Those species aren't extinct retard. I can take the subway down and see tigers and giraffes at the zoo. I had some blue whale for dinner recently.

You guys grumble and hoo-hah about the thousands of species we're offing every year. But it's mostly just hot air, and you're making up the figures as you go along. I bet you can't even name *ONE* species that went extinct last year.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby JohnDenver » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 00:07:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alcassin', '
')Image
Good hunting, true safari... how much are they worth?


Thanks Alcy, but I think you've got the wrong poster for the current mass extinction event. Gorillas aren't extinct. The accurate poster showing the species going extinct looks like this (cue tragic violin music):

Image
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby Zardoz » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 02:01:11

C'mon, folks, JD is just having fun with us. He's having a ball seeing how many of us actually take him seriously.

It's his hobby. He gave it up for a while, but apparently he got bored and came back. He has too good a time with us to stay away.

Continue, JD. Enjoy yourself.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby eastbay » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 02:07:55

Zardoz is correct about our good friend JD.

Sure, he's a unique person, but he's OUR unique person and many here do enjoy reading his Happy Face fantasies. He enjoys dropping in now and then and engaging with the newer members who now and then respond to his humorous rants about a future world filled with cheap energy, endless population growth, and bountiful harvests for all.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby LoneSnark » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 02:25:10

It seems to me JD is the only one here that is actually taking any of this seriously.

Secondly, I have read quite a bit of what he has posted and such fantasy does not sound like him. His is a future filled with mopeds and car-pooling, obviously not perpetual cheap energy.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby TonyPrep » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 03:31:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'Y')ou don't even have the balls to admit you're wrong!
It's common behaviour here. You act like that too, namenick.
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Re: Your BEST Argument for Why Everything Will Be Okay

Unread postby TonyPrep » Sat 09 Feb 2008, 03:54:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'T')hanks Alcy, but I think you've got the wrong poster for the current mass extinction event. Gorillas aren't extinct. The accurate poster showing the species going extinct looks like this (cue tragic violin music)
I see that you have no worries about any species that became extinct in recent times or that are endangered, even though you don't know how the extinction of those species may affect our existence or quality of life. However, that is no excuse for ridiculing those who are worried.

According to the IUCN Red List (PDF) at least 10% of vertebrates, at least 3% of plants, at least 1% of mushrooms, lichens and brown algae, and at least 0.18% of invertebrates are endangered (percentages are based on total known species; percentages of examined species are much, much higher).

I certainly wouldn't call for preferential treatment of non-human species but it seems our behaviour in removing or polluting habitats is severely stressing the biosphere that we, ourselves, inhabit. I think we should stop doing that as the precautionary principle would dictate. I don't think it is a matter for off-hand remarks that assume total knowledge about the interactions of various species and the environment that sustains us.
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