[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Alcassin', 'Y')ou can't escape ... this planet is too small.

[Newfie]

Namenick said:
“I understand what you mean with the cod depletion in the Maritimes but I don't think I would call that a die-off. In fact many Newfies are now in N. Alberta and doing very well there.”

Let me try to flesh this out a little for there may be something here. Note to self “goal it to identify why it is going to be OK.”

Lets look at the Maritimes as an example of what can happen. We don’t need to call it a ‘Die Off” but there is a steady decrease of population.

The Maritimes are a first world region that is suffering from the effects of ecological damage; i.e., cod depletion. They do not yet have “Peak Oil” but are almost wholly dependent upon imports. What little prosperity they have is through 2 things:
1) non-renewable resource extraction, Grand Banks oil and
2) money sent home from the tar sands

People are moving from the country into cities (St. Johns and Halifax) where they are dependent upon the global economy. Though, thinking it through, I guess Newfoundland has always been a part of the global economy as they were exporting cod and importing most everything else. They were in the country because that is where the fish are. Now that the fish are gone moving to the city makes sense as it is cheaper living.

So this is a depletion scenario, not unlike peak oil. They are having a tough time meeting the challenges and, as you noted, much of their current wealth comes from the Oil Patch. In this sense the Maritimes are not unlike Mexico exporting workers who send money back to the homeland, keeping that economy afloat. In effect they are expanding their economic base by taking wealth from off shore and importing it.

You have to believe that these people are trying to find the “Best Solution, that is OK.” So in this real world test case for many that solution is to move out, or work at a distance away from home. Go where the money is but keep your roots. And if they could not? I don’t know.

The take away message here would be that the best short term strategy (30 years?) would be to remain flexible, to be able to move to wealth and have tradeable skills. Then things might be OK.

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he level of your hallucination's are limitless. I think this statement alone identifies you as being very ill informed on the pollution issue.

However you are "free" to believe exactly what "you" choose to believe lest any wonder why we are really truly and utterly doomed.

[Duende]

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')uende, where do you get your money? ...so you have some income from somewhere. God, how can we hold this conversation if you've never heard of a friggin' job before!?!?

[namenick]

Newfie- Actually I'm not even sure what we are discussing here. It's really a question of to what extent we will be o.k. or not o.k. Obviously things are going to change somewhat but I think it's going to be far from a die-off because of PO. It's just more exaggerations from the doom and gloomers again.

In order for the people on this forum to ever gain some credibility they are going to have to forget about what they wish to happen and concentrate on what will logically happen. Until they do they will continue to be entertainment for people like JD. And I'm not talking about you specifically, just those who leave themselves open to his derision. People like btu2012 or pstarr who can't keep their tongues from flapping and get themselves slapped down every other day or so.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')s usual, LoneSnark is right.

Rich countries can afford to care more about the environment than poor countries.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'N')ewfie- Actually I'm not even sure what we are discussing here. It's really a question of to what extent we will be o.k. or not o.k. Obviously things are going to change somewhat but I think it's going to be far from a die-off because of PO. It's just more exaggerations from the doom and gloomers again.

In order for the people on this forum to ever gain some credibility they are going to have to forget about what they wish to happen and concentrate on what will logically happen. Until they do they will continue to be entertainment for people like JD. And I'm not talking about you specifically, just those who leave themselves open to his derision. People like btu2012 or pstarr who can't keep their tongues from flapping and get themselves slapped down every other day or so.

[threadbear]

You make some great arguments about natural limits. I'm actually more concerned about the raw materials required to build automobiles (and everything else) than the energy required to get them moving. I think many people reading this forum have become equally jaded about the doom and gloom oil scenario.

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen humans can purchase land with money earned from exploting land, there is nothing standing in the way of complete development of all land and resources (in the face of world population growth). Is that even debatable?

[namenick]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'N')ewfie- Actually I'm not even sure what we are discussing here. It's really a question of to what extent we will be o.k. or not o.k. Obviously things are going to change somewhat but I think it's going to be far from a die-off because of PO. It's just more exaggerations from the doom and gloomers again.

In order for the people on this forum to ever gain some credibility they are going to have to forget about what they wish to happen and concentrate on what will logically happen. Until they do they will continue to be entertainment for people like JD. And I'm not talking about you specifically, just those who leave themselves open to his derision. People like btu2012 or pstarr who can't keep their tongues from flapping and get themselves slapped down every other day or so.

[I_Like_Plants]

Inertia. Just sheer inertia.

I'm beginning to be convinced that I'd probably be a low-wage fuckup no matter how the economy is doing, and that's OK. So I'll be a happy dishwasher somewhere and play trumpet or whatever I'm doing to do and be happy.

On this matter, Empire subjects are convinced things will continue on as they have, because they always have. Very few Depression survivors alive now, things have been peachy for decades. Firebombing Dresden didn't make *us* suffer, and we invented Spam and Twinkies!

Whether things actually will BE about the same as usual who knows .... frankly the best thing to assume on an individual level is that things will be fine.

Conserving, living within your means, learning skills, growing your own veggies, all that, turn out to be good for the pocket book and good for the soul, so why not do 'em anyway?

We probably are going to crash because that's what Empires do. But right now it seems, sadly, to be counterproductive and mark one as a kook if one goes around talking about it.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'Y')ou and I can elaborate on the suffering together if you care to do that. You start. Other than your worshipping of Simmons, it appears to be the only thing we disagree on now.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'I')nertia. Just sheer inertia.

I'm beginning to be convinced that I'd probably be a low-wage fuckup no matter how the economy is doing, and that's OK. So I'll be a happy dishwasher somewhere and play trumpet or whatever I'm doing to do and be happy.

On this matter, Empire subjects are convinced things will continue on as they have, because they always have. Very few Depression survivors alive now, things have been peachy for decades. Firebombing Dresden didn't make *us* suffer, and we invented Spam and Twinkies!

Whether things actually will BE about the same as usual who knows .... frankly the best thing to assume on an individual level is that things will be fine.

Conserving, living within your means, learning skills, growing your own veggies, all that, turn out to be good for the pocket book and good for the soul, so why not do 'em anyway?

We probably are going to crash because that's what Empires do. But right now it seems, sadly, to be counterproductive and mark one as a kook if one goes around talking about it.

[namenick]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'Y')ou and I can elaborate on the suffering together if you care to do that. You start. Other than your worshipping of Simmons, it appears to be the only thing we disagree on now.

[I_Like_Plants]

threadbear - you may have something there, writing may be a good thing, and I'm planning to live so that I don't need a lot of money.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there will be a dieoff, collapse, and all that - but we proud subjects of the Empire will bust our asses to live exactly as we've been living, until we absolutely can't. Non-negotiable means just that.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') think it's unlikely that food yields and food distribution will be maintained during the transition, along with food aid to other nations.

I think an extensive die-back is likely, though it may be highly localised (even in developed nations). That's not to say that it is not possible to support the present population, if appropriate measures are taken, but that it is unlikely that appropriate measures will be taken in a timely fashion and that the population of the globe is still growing.

[namenick]

Tony- The reason I don't see a die-back or starvation among the masses in developed coutries at this time or in the foreseeable future is because it is so farfetched that it's not even worth my time to consider the possibility. At present the US is not even interested in sustaining food production enough to stop wasting it's resources on it's wars. In Canada we probably waste more food than we eat and we eat twice as much as we need.

I'm just not going to go there with you Tony at this time. If at sometime in the future you can demonstrate that the process has begun and people are beginning to starve because of the effects of PO, I will entertain your ideas then.

As to my underestimating or not, the resistance to change, I'm not going there either because it has nothing to do with the issue. Change comes about by necessity and when people get hungry they make the necessary changes to stay alive. You go ahead and imagine up a situation where Americans or NZers are dying of starvation on the streets because of PO but count me out.

I'm disappointed in you Tony because you are starting to show indications that you are as whacked out of reality as the others and that has to be with your predictions not happening fast enough.

No, I do not regard a sustainable society as doom and gloom! Doom and gloom is something entirely different to me but I can't speak for you. If that's your idea of doom and gloom then we're on different wavelengths and I'm wasting my time with your ideas.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'T')ony- The reason I don't see a die-back or starvation among the masses in developed coutries at this time or in the foreseeable future is because it is so farfetched that it's not even worth my time to consider the possibility.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') think an extensive die-back is likely, though it may be highly localised (even in developed nations).

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('namenick', 'H')ow does PO cause this?