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The Green Movement Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby Revi » Mon 08 Oct 2007, 20:34:12

Great ideas!
Sometimes the simplest things save the most energy. We've done almost all of these things, and more and we save over $2650 every year. We also reduced our fossil fuel use by half and are putting half the carbon into the atmosphere.

Here's what we've done:

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/ ... /index.htm
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby Blacksmith » Mon 08 Oct 2007, 22:43:55

Good suggestions thanks.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby bodigami » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 00:52:13

Most solutions are geographical-specific... they should be compiled and organized in categories.

LED lightbulbs are even more efficient and doesn't have mercury... and there are new developments sometimes, recently the white-light LED bulb.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby BobWallace » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 01:27:14

Anyone found reasonably priced LEDs for general home lighting?

Everything that I've found so far is quite expensive.

Well, except for a very nice LED nightlight that turns itself off in daylight for about $2.... ;o)
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby BastardSquad » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 03:57:49

Ideas "1" and "9" are in direct conflict with one another!

Dimmer switches don't work on CFL's (unless there's been some breakthrough I'm unaware of).
"Switzerland is small and neutral.We need to be more like Germany,ambitious and misunderstood!" Futurama


"As for the dieoff of 5E+09 people - not a problem, so long as I'm not one of them." Jack
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby Revi » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 08:44:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HydroLuver', 'R')evi, great website !!! It gave me a few ideas that I need to look into for my own house.

1) I have a wooded lot and could easily create my own wood temple. I also could add a wood stove.

2) I have not yet done the solar water heater, but I should. There is a local solar company that is advertising about the state and federal tax credits.


You'll get about a half a cord per acre of woodland per year, sustainably. We just filled the "wood temple" for the season and that's real homeland security. We put a wood stove in with it's own flue, up an outside wall. We have a Jotul 602n which was designed to be put in small spaces. The only drawback is that it takes a 14" stick of wood, and you have to get that cut special, or cut it yourself.

We have had a great time doing the things we've done and now it is really paying off in quality of life and utility bills.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby Troyboy1208 » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 10:36:36

Thanks for saving all that energy! More for me to use :)
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby yesplease » Tue 09 Oct 2007, 17:48:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') have come to understand that increased 'efficiently' and technical 'elegance' within this suburban/automobile system will use up remaining fossil fuels just as fast. Check out Jevon's Paradox.
Jevon's Paradox?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n economics, the Jevons Paradox is an observation made by William Stanley Jevons, who stated that as technological improvements increase the efficiency with which a resource is used, total consumption of that resource may increase, rather than decrease. It is historically called the Jevons Paradox since it ran counter to Jevons's intuition, but it is well understood by modern economic theory which shows that improved resource efficiency may trigger a change in the overall consumption of that resource. The direction of that change depends on other economic variables.
Since post peak, we can't increase consumption, by virtue of the peak itself, Jevon's Paradox isn't much of a concern since it doesn't apply. The only people who believe Jevon's Paradox will always hold true are cornocopians, since ever increasing resource availability is the only way Jevon's Paradox can always apply.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby aahala » Wed 10 Oct 2007, 11:43:16

This energy saving list that started the thread seems pretty
much what was passing around 15 or 20 years ago.

I mislike the attitude of media that one should merely repeat
someone's else work and continue repeatly inaccuracies. Facts change!

Item (2 -- bleeding or standby loss accounts for 40% of
its electrical useage. This claim was probably never true
generally and a whole lot less likely now than years ago.
The issue was well known by the powers that be and
by the early 1990's the government told the appliance
manufacturers to either fix the issue voluntarily or
government mandates would be applied. Anyway,
appliances since then don't have much standby loss.

Item (4 -- save 40% by buying a water heater blanket.
You are not going to save anything close to 40% if your
heater was already built insulated. Most heaters were required
to be insulated as the result of the 1988 "National Appliance
Energy Conversation Act". The first insulation regulation from
that was 1990.

In your particular case, you MAY have one or both of these
problems but you are fairly likely to have neither. I think it
almost deceptive not to mention this in such a printed list.
(The author probably didn't know better as he used the
copy and paste button. Why waste time checking the facts?)

I also don't like the idea to get greener by saving one third on
your hottub! I have a much easier suggestion, how to save
three thirds.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 10 Oct 2007, 11:57:35

Yeah, just not bothering to have a lot of these luxuries is the easiest way to conserve both money and energy. Because of Jevon's paradox, we know that conserving energy, unless you generate your own, probably won't do much good in the big picture, but conserving money by not investing in luxuries like hot tubs and AC can enable one to reduce the need to earn, thus reducing production and consumption on the wider scale.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby BobWallace » Wed 10 Oct 2007, 12:10:28

Jevon's paradox doesn't hold when considering a commodity that is decreasing in supply. It assumes a constant supply and no external pressures that would increase cost.

Oil supplies are going to decrease. Demand is going to increase (at least in the short/mid term). The few countries that do have significant amounts of oil are going to crank up the price to what the market will bear.

Forget Jevon and all his doxes. He's just a smoke screen thrown up by the severely pessimistic.
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 10 Oct 2007, 18:31:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'Y')esplease you made a blanket statement that ignores the defintion you presented. How does the definition imply that "ever increasing resource availability is the only way Jevon's Paradox can always apply" Rather greater efficiency can overtake modest declines.


Jevons Paradox...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n economics, the Jevons Paradox is an observation made by William Stanley Jevons, who stated that as technological improvements increase the efficiency with which a resource is used, total consumption of that resource may increase, rather than decrease.

So, if efficiency increases, consumption may increase. However, in order for the consumption per day to increase, we need to get more of it. According to the peak in any supply, we can't get more of it. So, no matter what happens post peak in terms of efficiency, because of the peak, we can't consume more than we did at peak. Jevons Paradox can only apply up to the peak in any resource and it is about consumption, how much we use per day, compared to efficiency. It doesn't matter if we increase our efficiency of use one hundred times post peak, we can never consume more than we did at peak.

If you wanna start pstarrs paradox, and go into whatever you're talking about, feel free. But you're not talking about Jevons Paradox. ;)
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Re: 13 easy, inexpensive ways to go green

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 10 Oct 2007, 22:42:00

Hey, you said it, not me. Course, I'm not surprised that someone who openly comments about such things is a cornocopian. ;)
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby Laughs_Last » Thu 18 Oct 2007, 22:14:40

I agree with Manu.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'L')ook back 100 years go, and it was American architects, along with structural engineers, who led the world in building innovations.

Those were all profit-driven innovations. Architects do the bidding of their employers. It is all about money, and always has been, at least in America.
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby dooberheim » Sun 21 Oct 2007, 03:28:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Waterthrush', 'G')reat article. I think that Republicans have so practiced the politics of demonization that every issue has become political - i.e. that even support for "green architecture" implies some implicit value for the environment and also some caution about fuel use. That cannot be conceded by Republicans. Also, there was a paragraph about the good work done by government agencies in passing regulations and planning benchmarks - quelle horreur! This so totally goes against 30 years of propaganda whereby anything originated by governments is wasteful and horrible.


There's a few Republicans that do concede that. Peak oil and rrelocalization have support all across the political spectrum. I come from a libertarian political viewpoint - feel free markets do an excellent job of efficiently allocating resources when there is enough for everybody. When things get scarce, then government has to step in.

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