[Fishman]

I've grown two gardens the last three years. One was semiorganic, using standard fertilizer occasionally, mostly organic pesticides, tiller as needed. The other was low petro input. No tiller, poor soil. Hauled in greensand, phosphate rock, lime by hand (bare minimum needed as these will require transport from other sites). I used clover, comfrey, compost , and a little pee for my nitrogen. Tilled everything by hand, used a scythe to cut the weeds. Very little organic pesticides used (they will require transport also). Damn hard work, many will starve. Drying and transporting manure won't work. It takes a huge amount of energy to do those things. Remember EROEI, it holds true in agriculture also.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')orjus you're missing my point. I agree we'll have to learn to raise food, but we won't have to be farmers, we can be gardeners, which is much easier.

http://www.growbiointensive.org/biointe ... NSIVE.html

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'T')orjus, sorry how my post came up.

Oh, on the composting toilet, better cook that turd well done. I've done my Masters in Public Health in Parasitology and there are lots of things that want to get back inside us.

[Kingcoal]

Most fertilizers, along with other petrochemicals are made using natural gas. I think you have to put things into perspective; 70% of crude oil goes into transport. Fertilizers are a significant consumer, but comparitively a small slice of the pie.

While I have no doubt that we'll be paying more for food, I think that the reasons for the price increases will have more to do with increasing transportation costs.

[Fishman]

Torjus, sorry how my post came up.

Oh, on the composting toilet, better cook that turd well done. I've done my Masters in Public Health in Parasitology and there are lots of things that want to get back inside us.

[Aimrehtopyh]

What Doly said is true if we have the time to adapt. I seriously doubt we will have the time or the inclination to adapt. Many people will starve before I see ex-mortgage agents and car salesmen working fields of barley by hand. Just picture North Korea circa 1995.

Zard, I'm very surprised that someone with your level of "seasoning" on this site didn't know about the oil we eat.

http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/

Click on "Agriculture".

The oil we eat:
http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '.')...
"We'll all have to farm or starve" is a popular PO myth I'd like to bust.

http://pathtofreedom.com/

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')etting serious now, even before the advent of fossil fuels most socieites had craft specialists (blacksmith, carpenter, samurai, etc... ) who did NOT farm but certainly still ate.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'T')orjus, sorry how my post came up.

Oh, on the composting toilet, better cook that turd well done. I've done my Masters in Public Health in Parasitology and there are lots of things that want to get back inside us.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'T')orjus, sorry how my post came up.

Oh, on the composting toilet, better cook that turd well done. I've done my Masters in Public Health in Parasitology and there are lots of things that want to get back inside us.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aimrehtopyh', '.')..Zard, I'm very surprised that someone with your level of "seasoning" on this site didn't know about the oil we eat.

http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/

Click on "Agriculture".

The oil we eat:
http://www.harpers.org/TheOilWeEat.html

[Terran]

From what I heard, oil petrochemical plants are moving to the middle east, and concentrating there. Mainly because of cheaper feedstock.

We should expect the same for ammonia based fertilizers, if natural gas is too expensive here, Russia can just build ammonia plants over there, they can use their vast and cheap natural gas a feedstock, and produce gasous ammonia. Ammonia has a higher boiling point than natural gas, therefore less energy to turn to liquid under compression.

If ammonia prices get too expensive, Russia can produce it more cheaply, and sell U.S ammonia fertilizer.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aimrehtopyh', ' ') Many people will starve before I see ex-mortgage agents and car salesmen working fields of barley by hand.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', 'I')'ve grown two gardens the last three years. One was semiorganic, using standard fertilizer occasionally, mostly organic pesticides, tiller as needed. The other was low petro input. No tiller, poor soil. Hauled in greensand, phosphate rock, lime by hand (bare minimum needed as these will require transport from other sites). I used clover, comfrey, compost , and a little pee for my nitrogen. Tilled everything by hand, used a scythe to cut the weeds. Very little organic pesticides used (they will require transport also). Damn hard work, many will starve. Drying and transporting manure won't work. It takes a huge amount of energy to do those things. Remember EROEI, it holds true in agriculture also.

[Leanan]

Fertilizer plants are already moving overseas. That is one reason the price of fertilizer has risen so much.

The reason for growing grains is that they keep. Remember the Bible - the seven years of plenty, followed by the seven years of famine? That is how it used to be in the old days. Governments would store grain in case of emergency (drought, warfare, flooding, plagues of locusts, etc.). We no longer do that. (Except China - they have not forgotten that famine leads to rebellion. They consider large food stores a security issue.)

This is our biggest concern, IMO. We can probably feed our population without fossil fuels, if all goes well. (As long as the population doesn't keep growing as it is now.) But our safety net will be gone. It's one thing to grow your own food when you can make up any shortfalls at the grocery store, quite another to be 100% dependent on what you grow.

[Leanan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he other day we had some hail. One good hailstorm can destroy most or all of your garden. I was lucky and only lost a couple of seedlings, but the hail wasn't that big.

[lawnchair]

That's the basic idea of garden allotments. In some areas, the group of allotment gardeners will also go in together on a shed, tools (particularly a tiller), installing water distribution pipes, and paying for water. Somehow almost unheard of in North America since the Victory Garden era.

The thing I find is that while gardening may cut my food bills dramatically, it's very hard to replace the caloric intake from agriculture. Currently, it's not reasonable to grow the basic starches and proteins (maize, rice, wheat, soya, lentils and other dry beans). If I devoted myself to it full-time, some chickens and a dairy goat would help immensely with the protein side of the equation. Right now, I'm vegetarian, but would consider hand-raised meat if I thought it logical to further survival/ecological health.

Garden veggies are one thing. But, the staples benefit heavily from mechanization and the division of labor. The price of flour (pasta, etc), rice and pulses could (and eventually will) increase 20-fold and they would still be a huge bargain over growing them yourself or replacing them with easier-to-garden starches and proteins. At 20 times the price, a lot more manual labor and organic practices could be implemented.

That said, if you have land, nurture the heck out of it. If you have skills (canning for instance) share the knowledge.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'R')emember the Bible - the seven years of plenty, followed by the seven years of famine?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'R')emember the Bible - the seven years of plenty, followed by the seven years of famine?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'T')he reason for growing grains is that they keep. Remember the Bible - the seven years of plenty, followed by the seven years of famine? That is how it used to be in the old days. Governments would store grain in case of emergency (drought, warfare, flooding, plagues of locusts, etc.). We no longer do that. (Except China - they have not forgotten that famine leads to rebellion. They consider large food stores a security issue.)