[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')How bad would it be if not for those gains?

[azreal60]

Monte, no more long lists. If they aren't getting it after just saying it, all the lists in the world isn't going to change their minds. I've never seen a mind opened by a list, just numbed.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('azreal60', 'M')onte, no more long lists. If they aren't getting it after just saying it, all the lists in the world isn't going to change their minds. I've never seen a mind opened by a list, just numbed.

[TonyPrep]

I think my point, amply demonstrated by a number of links in recent posts, is that sustainable methods of food production (but not all organic methods) could well be possible, to feed 6.5 billion people. Monte refuses to accept this but says, even if true, it would be disastrous. I contend that 6.5 billion people living sustainably would not be disastrous. However, I don't think it will ever happen.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', 'I') think my point, amply demonstrated by a number of links in recent posts, is that sustainable methods of food production (but not all organic methods) could well be possible, to feed 6.5 billion people. Monte refuses to accept this but says, even if true, it would be disastrous. I contend that 6.5 billion people living sustainably would not be disastrous. However, I don't think it will ever happen.

[jesus_of_suburbia_old]

Maybe you could feed 6.5 billion. How could you handle their other needs, though?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jesus_of_suburbia', 'M')aybe you could feed 6.5 billion. How could you handle their other needs, though?

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hen you deny we are in overshoot.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jesus_of_suburbia', 'M')aybe you could feed 6.5 billion. How could you handle their other needs, though?

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
posted really long list...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hen you deny we are in overshoot.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')[ That long list of "laws" are words not deeds and it doesn't change the FACT that in the aggregate the losses - Loss of ecosystems, topsoil, species, the poisoning of water supplies, destruction of forests and general dumping of toxins has greatly overshadowed the "gains". If you consider the net a gain, well thats your opinion....

[holmes]

I think some have their thinking ass backwards. I think they think that without modern technology and oil that the carrying capacity would stay the same or increase. Thats not the case. take it away it drastically decreases. "Living off the land" will increase our footprint. when we are forced to we will see just how denuded and barren and polluted the land will get. We are in a utopia now compared to what is going to happen when we just hit the wall.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', ' ')There would also need to be a virtually immediate halt to population growth.

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')o, you don't appreciate or note any of the gains because they didn't turn the tide?

How bad would things be without those laws?

[Ludi]

" Ethics: It is not the purpose of people on earth to reduce all soils to perfectly balanced, well-drained, irrigated, and mulched market gardens, although this is achievable and necessary on the 4% of the earth we need for our food production. Thus what I have to say of soils refers to that 4%, with wider implications only for those soils (60% of all agricultural soils) that we have ruined by the plough or polluted by emissions from cars, sprays, radioactives and industry.

Our largest job is the restoration of soils and forests for the sake of the healthy earth itself. It is most definitely not to clear, deforest, or ruin any more land, but first to put in order what we have destroyed, at the same time attending to the modest area that we need for our survival and full nutrition....

Colin Tudge ( New Scientist '86) muses on the proportion of the British Isles that could be given back to nature. He comes down with a very conservative estimate of perhaps 60%. And at that, without letting go of the misconception that it is agriculture (not individual and market gardening) that will actually provide the future food we eat (a common fallacy). John Jeavons estimates ( on the basis of gardens ) that we could return perhaps 94% of the land to its own purposes. Not that I think that we will get there this next decade, but we can start, and our children can continue the process, and so develop new forests and wilderness to explore. A reduction of the ecological deserts that we have called agriculture is well overdue...."


- Bill Mollison - Chapter 8, Soils, "Permaculture a designers manual"

[Hawkcreek]

--

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')o, you don't appreciate or note any of the gains because they didn't turn the tide?

How bad would things be without those laws?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')Our largest job is the restoration of soils and forests for the sake of the healthy earth itself. It is most definitely not to clear, deforest, or ruin any more land, but first to put in order what we have destroyed, at the same time attending to the modest area that we need for our survival and full nutrition....

[MonteQuest]

And, let's say for a moment that permaculture can support 6.7 billion. How many can it support? Can it always meet the food demands no matter how many?

How many?

8 billion? 9 billion?

Well, we are going to get 13.4 billion at the current growth rate in 58 years.

But the UN says 9.1 by 2050 and then stabilized you say?

Only if the standard of living continues to rise enough to allow for demographic transition in the developing world...or die-off sets in.

Overshoot populations do not become climax communities.

Not the way nature works.