[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hink of how bad it would be if we had not fought for cleaner air and water?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', ' ')What other animals do is irrelevant. Not all animals have identical methods of obtaining food. We do not need to act exactly like any other particular species. Evolution has given species unique traits that serve them well and allow them to thrive. We have unique behavioural traits also. They have enabled us to figure out alternative ways to obtain food.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hink of how bad it would be if we had not fought for cleaner air and water?

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hink of how bad it would be if we had not fought for cleaner air and water?

[Hawkcreek]

--

[Ludi]

"Organic farming often leads to increased food production, in many cases we have seen a
doubling of yields, which contributes to increasing the food security of a region. The cases
studies outlined in this report support the growing body of evidence that shows that yield
increases are possible and indeed likely, with a switch to organic farming in a variety of
different contexts, particularly in marginalised areas or where traditional farming methods
are used."

link

'Organic farming produces the same yields of corn and soybeans as does conventional farming, but uses 30 percent less energy, less water and no pesticides, a review of a 22-year farming trial study concludes.

David Pimentel, a Cornell University professor of ecology and agriculture, concludes, "Organic farming offers real advantages for such crops as corn and soybeans." Pimentel is the lead author of a study that is published in the July issue of Bioscience (Vol. 55:7) analyzing the environmental, energy and economic costs and benefits of growing soybeans and corn organically versus conventionally. The study is a review of the Rodale Institute Farming Systems Trial, the longest running comparison of organic vs. conventional farming in the United States.

"Organic farming approaches for these crops not only use an average of 30 percent less fossil energy but also conserve more water in the soil, induce less erosion, maintain soil quality and conserve more biological resources than conventional farming does," Pimentel added.'

link

"In the flood plains of Bangladesh, community-based organic agriculture resulted from an increasing awareness of the harmful effects of the Green Revolution. The latter was showing a tremendous decline in crop yields despite an enormous increase in the need to apply fertilizers and pesticides. Groundwater was less available, livestock and fish populations were diminishing, the health situation was worsening (including gastric, skin and respiratory diseases) and exogenous varieties were gradually replacing traditional varieties. This forced many poor farmers to sell their land and other productive assets, shifting from farming to non-farming occupations....In a short time approximately 3000 Sumatran farmers have begun producing organic spices for the world markets. This has led to improved socio-economic conditions for the communities while at the same time preserving biodiversity both in the national parks and in the local agro-forestry systems (garden/forest plots)."

link


"The main impact has been on vegetable production. Many have doubled their yields by adopting double digging and composting techniques, using local natural methods of pest and disease control (such as planting sunflowers to attract predators, using local plant extracts to control maize stalk borer, and intercropping to reduce tomato blight). There have been big savings on pesticides, as farmers have cut out their use."


link


"In the first test in the difficult Siberian climate in 1995, GROW BIOINTENSIVE growing areas averaged yields that were 286% higher than US conventional averages."

link


"Crops in the GROW BIOINTENSIVE beds outstripped the traditional by 150%-200%. GROW BIOINTENSIVE yields for tomato and cabbage were 1.5 times higher. The traditional beds had to be watered twice as frequently as the GROW BIOINTENSIVE beds."



link



"Barley yield is 2 ton/ha and the estimated water consumption is 179 m3/ha/season and the estimated water use efficiency is 17.98 kg/m3. These values are recognized high as compare to conventional agriculture since much less irrigation water was applied under the permaculture design system."

link


'According to
Mollison, "Although the yield of a monocultural system will probably be
greater for a particular crop than the yield of any one species in a
permaculture system, the sum of yields in a mixed system will be larger."
In most cases more food is grown than can possibly be consumed on the site
by either humans or animals.'

link

[Hawkcreek]

--

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')Maybe it shows that you choose to ignore the absolutely appalling increase in industrial pollution in the third world in the last 30 years.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '"')Organic farming often leads to increased food production, in many cases we have seen a doubling of yields, which contributes to increasing the food security of a region.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')We are in overshoot.

[MonteQuest]

From one of Ludi's links:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')First and foremost, we found that corn and soybean yields were the same across the three systems," said Pimentel, who noted that although organic corn yields were about one-third lower during the first four years of the study, over time the organic systems produced higher yields, especially under drought conditions. The reason was that wind and water erosion degraded the soil on the conventional farm while the soil on the organic farms steadily improved in organic matter, moisture, microbial activity and other soil quality indicators.

[Hawkcreek]

--

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')We are in overshoot.

[PenultimateManStanding]

You don't get it do you Monte? I wish to God I had been born in another age. You are fretting about your credibility while the rest of us are looking at violent chaos.

[azreal60]

Thank you ludi for the references. That's all I was asking for guys, cherry picked quotes from a seminar do Not count as references. Peer reviewed studies do.

Now, questions.

Will those techniques work on farm land that's been chem farmed for an unimaginably high number of years?

Will people be able to pay the premiums for higher food costs?



Keep in mind, I agree that you can produce hi yields with organic farming. You just can't produce As high without fossil fuels. The studies where very wishy washy on this point. The soil replenishment parts where very on the organic side of the argument.

[MonteQuest]

And to make my point.

My 212 acre farm, for many, many years, was as close to an organic farm as you can get back in the 50's and 60's. We used no herbicides, rotated the crops, and spread cattle, hog, sheep, and and chicken manure on the fields.

We walked the fields and pulled the weeds. We used little or no fertilizer.

Our yields were small compared to our neighbors who farmed full-tilt conventional farming.

However, because we didn't have the huge overhead costs for fertilizer and the like, we didn't have to sell as soon as it was harvested to pay those bills. we could wait until the market went up.

Today, those same neighbors struggle to make 150 bushels and acre, while last year we made 200 on average and 240/bushel just south of the barn where it had the most organics and the best terraces.

But we don't make that yield doing it organically. We do it by conventional farming using nitrogen and herbicides.......and with way less fertilizer than my neighbors.

Love to do it organically, but no one will rent the land otherwise. I rent to a neighbor and we have no livestock anymore. Few farmers do. Another huge issue with going back to organic farming. We don't have the out-buildings anymore either. Few have a barn.

Again, it is all about scale in the face of peak oil.

My point. In my experience, on good land, you cannot compete with nitrogen fertilizers and herbicides. And I know of no other farmer who has.

It would take many years for organic farming to replace conventional farming yields due to the poor condition of the soil. All of the studies show that.

So, from my own personal experience as a farmer, and from what I have read, to posit that organic farming can now replace conventional farming yields in the midst of a decline in world-wide cereal crop production, as well as, increase overall yields to support a growing population already in overshoot and avert a die-off, is just not possible...nor desirable.

And that is the only point I am in contention about.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'Y')ou don't get it do you Monte? I wish to God I had been born in another age. You are fretting about your credibility while the rest of us are looking at violent chaos.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('azreal60', 'W')ill those techniques work on farm land that's been chem farmed for an unimaginably high number of years?

[gnm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')How bad would it be if not for those gains?

[MonteQuest]

And here's another Missouri farmer who will back me up.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')ood day, from Pheba, from the farm:
This is a subject I can respond to. I do a lot of lurking because I
don't want to post when I am unsure of my knowledge. But, I know farming. I have been around farms and farming most of my
life. Here is the bottom line:
Organic farming in the manner that most people think of as organic farming will not feed 6-1/2 billion people.
Organic farming methods won't even come close.


Yes, there are small plots here and there lovingly tended by organic growers. These wonderful farmers see the future, and are caring for the topsoil. By the way, by small plot I mean a few hundred acres. Most people just don't get how large this problem is.
The problem is that there is not enough of that lovingly tended acreage in existence to feed 6-1/2 billion people.

From where I see it, on the farm, we just can't do it.