[Retsel]

I work at the EPA lab in Ann Arbor Michigan where EPA director, Charles Gray, conceived and oversaw the design and development of the hydraulic hybrid. When George Bush cut our funding for this very outstanding project several years ago, we went to the automakers to find outside sources of funding, Ford stepped forward to codevelop the last parts of this project with us.

The hydraulic hybrid uses a cylinder with a bladder and nitrogen bubble in it that the hydraulic fluid compresses to store energy. Otherwise the system works much like a battery storage device, except that the hydraulic hybrid is more efficient for larger vehicles. When braking, the regenerative brake can generate a lot of energy that would need to be stored to recover the energy from braking. However, electric batteries are poor at storing a lot of energy quickly, especially for larger vehicles. Hydraulic hybrids are capable of storing a lot of instantaneous energy, hence it is more appropriate for larger vehicles.

Hybrids technology can double or even triple the fuel economy of even very large vehicles, which can save the day post oil peak.

[NEOPO]

[Last_Laff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Retsel', 'H')ybrids technology can double or even triple the fuel economy of even very large vehicles, which can save the day post oil peak.

[skyemoor]

As an electro-mechanical engineer, I can't help but feel this is a greenwash hoax. First, hydraulic fluids don't compress, so you can't 'store' energy in a hydraulic cylinder, unless you use height, like in a hydro plant. Second, the weight and high drag coefficient of an F-150 combine to make it near impossible to create a 60 mpg powerplant that will have the ability to attain highway speeds and acceleration to the same under 60 seconds.

I wouldn't be surprised if Karl Rove was having to moonlight somewhere and found a part-time position in Ford's rumor department...

[Terrapin]

Indeed The hydraulic fluid does not compress…the nitrogen bubble does. This would help overcome the regenerative breaking inefficiency problem of the conventional electric hybrid. It seems like it’s capacity may be somewhat limited however, giving it more of an advantage around town as opposed to capturing all the energy of coming down a long steep hill. Is that right Retsel?

[skyemoor]

If it's a nitrogen bubble that compresses, then it is more properly termed "pneumatic hybrid". I still stand by the rest of my post.

[Terrapin]

Good point.

I suspect someone decided that “hydraulic” (think Caterpillar) has more marketing cache than “pneumatic” (think desk chair).

I could see how it might help a truck that did a lot of stopping and starting; perhaps a UPS truck. I can’t see how it would help an f150 much however the way most people drive. 300% is very hard to believe…

[Retsel]

I could see how it might help a truck that did a lot of stopping and starting; perhaps a UPS truck. I can’t see how it would help an f150 much however the way most people drive. 300% is very hard to believe…

Well in fact we fit this technology into a UPS step van and recently it has been doing runs with some of our engineers following along and taking data.

This technology works very well, I am not sure that we have achieved a 300 percent improvement in practice, but in theory 300% should be attainable.

See: http://epa.gov/otaq/technology/#partnership

A LOT of power is wasted getting a vehicle up to speed to only put on the brakes. I suspect that vehicles that travel solely on the highway would not achieve a significant improvement if it only is driven at highway speeds, but if people are driving at rush hour, they are not driving at highway speeds anyways, and are braking quite a bit.

One of the places that hydraulic technology can be signficantly improved is by making more efficient hydraulic pumps. I think that we have already made some improvement in hydraulic pump technology. Additional improvements will significantly improve hydraulic hybrid technology.

[Retsel]

It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.

I am not sure you meant this for me or for people in general. I live 1.5 miles from work and ride my bike each way to and from work. Me and my wife are putting in a ground source heat pump for heating/cooling the house, and heating the hot water. Despite the actions I take, I want more energy efficient means for moving food from the farms to the city where I live. I am pleased that our office is on the cutting edge of hybrid technology as it gives us hope that we will be able to function post oil peak.

What are you doing?

Retsel

[snax]

Yes, residents of the US, they've done it again. The so called federal tax credit for purchasing a hybrid vehicle is not a credit after all for many. Too bad the IRS published NOTHING about the contingencies for receiving the credit before the end of the year!
In short, if your tax liability before taking the credit is wiped out by taking any prior credit like the child tax credit, your hybrid tax credit counts for nothing. As an example, we are due $1800 back in addition to what we paid in due to child tax credits without the hybrid credit. With the hybrid credit included, we still only receive $1800 back! Worthless!!!

It's a bait and switch. Nothing was published on the IRS page referencing this little hitch, and thousands of hybrid buyers this last year will not receive the full credit outlined by the IRS. We would likely have settled for a slightly used hybrid instead of purchasing new had this information been made available BEFORE purchasing.
Consider yourself informed.

[Tyler_JC]

Are you sure that you aren't receiving any kind of benefit from the hybrid tax credit/deduction?
If you purchased it before 2006, you get a $2000 deduction against your income. (but don't hold me to that, I'm not a CPA)
If you purchased it after 2006, you might be eligible for a federal income tax credit but those credits are limited to a certain number depending on the manufactorer. (Again, I'm not a registered CPA):
Economy
I suggest you check out that link before sending in your return.
It is possible that you have entirely eliminated your income tax burden so that adding another deduction would not effect you so this might be a moot point.

[fletch961]

Tyler, You pretty much hit it right on.
There are two kinds of tax credits. Non-refundable and refundable.
Non-refundable, the most common, can only bring your tax liability down to zero. The alternative vehicle credit, which goes on line 55, can only bring your tax( line 44), down to zero (line 57). Obviously you were already down to zero by the time you hit line 53. So you didn't get to use your credit on line 55.

Refundable tax credits (Earned income tax credit, Additional child tax credit) can in fact bring your tax liability to less than zero. A negative tax. Well not exactly. They are refunds of your social security tax. If you are in this category not only are you not paying any income tax, but you are getting back some of your social security with-holdings. The Social Security Trust Fund does not exist to help people buy new cars-whether they are hybrids or not-at least not yet any way thank god.

[fletch961]

I guess I should add the disclaimer that I'm not a CPA and none of that should be construed as tax advise.

[snax]

You've missed the point. It was touted as a "credit" without the order of which it would be applied on the return published in any direct links from the information page on the IRS web site.
So Gideon, whether I am 'owed' your money or my own SS payments in return is irrelevant. We pay taxes in so many other ways, I doubt I've really passed the break-even point on this one, so keep the attitude in your pants.
The majority of people who purchased hybrids were sold this same bill of goods and are now equally disappointed that they are not eligible for the full tax credit because this catch was hidden deep within the IRS tax code and not readily discoverable on their website.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'B')ecause after I write out my tax check for about 80 large, but before I break out a tissue and cry for you, I want to make sure that I have my facts straight.

[Blake]

The tax form that applies the credit for Hybrid vehicles will not be ready until 2-16-2007. Download the forms then you will find that the $3,150.00 Tax credit will be available.

[snax]

I'm so sorry you make so much.
You are right, our tax system is a mess, and it's hollow promises like the hybrid tax credit which make it so much of one.
Our entire tax system needs a revamping that eliminate all of this crap completely. You can call it a handout if you want to, but the IRS calls it a credit.
From Dictionary.com: Credit:
10. a sum of money due to a person; anything valuable standing on the credit side of an account: He has an outstanding credit of $50.
13. any deposit or sum of money against which a person may draw.
Aren't I just a silly fool for not being a tax expert and thinking a dictionary definition would provide a good clue as to what 'credit' means. I guess I missed the part where the IRS tacked on 'unless we screw you out of it'.
I don't know what means you think people of lower income have, but when you talk of researching a tax issue, consider that most people do not have the luxury of consulting a CPA for every little thing, nor to spend countless hours trying to find it themselves. That fact is that the IRS did not make this information readily available anywhere on it's website. I looked extensively before we purchased with no luck. Why don't you try to find it if it's so easy? The IRS hadn't even settled on the layout of the tax credit form untill the beginning of the year.

It's a joke of a system and a scam by omission. Whether you feel slighted at my pocketing extra money or not however does not concern me in the slightest. As I indicated, we pay plenty of taxes indirectly through many other means including donations of time and energy to charities and schools who are getting shafted by the great "No child left behind" B.S.
If you want to talk about contributions to society, we could go there, but that's not what this thread is about. So get off your pretentious high horse of being forced to 'hand out' to the underpriveledged and try to stay on topic. Maybe try to put this issue to rest by finding the actual tax code and publication date which clarifies the issue instead of ridiculing people for what you think they should have known.

[fletch961]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat fact is that the IRS did not make this information readily available anywhere on it's website. I looked extensively before we purchased with no luck.

[snax]

So now everybody is supposed to be a law scholar as well?
Wikipedia is not an official source of information for the IRS.
Put up or shut up. Post a direct link to the IRS web page that outlines the methodology by which the hybrid tax credit is applied.
Your opinions on welfare, my income, child tax and earned income credits, are irrelevant to the topic.
I'll refrain from the personal insults if you will as well. Let's try to keep this civil. Remember that Google archives EVERYTHING.

[snax]

Keep it on topic. Whether I pay taxes or not is not the point, nor is it really your business when it comes down to it. Your personal attacks dillute your arguments and are based upon incorrect assumptions.