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The Green Movement Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Green Revolution implosion

Unread postby Leanan » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 17:34:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he (JIT) "just in time" business model is becoming a thing of the past *seriously*.


That's news to Wal-Mart. Their business plan is to beat the competition by getting "just-in-timier." :P

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')any foods keep other than grains. Many foods can be dried and retain most of their nutrients.


I think everyone knows that. But canning, freezing, drying, etc., are not as easy as storing grain.

Most horticultural societies don't even try. Instead, they invest in the goodwill of their neighbors. When your staple is something that doesn't keep easily (sweet potatoes, say), you give your surplus to your neighbors. Then, when you are in need, they will share with you.
"The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Green Revolution implosion

Unread postby coyote » Mon 10 Apr 2006, 20:18:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'B')ut heaven forbid anyone should reconsider their "we're doomed" beliefs.

I'm really sometimes tempted to just say "Ok, just go die then." Why should I try to convince anyone otherwise?

:(

Ludi: please be patient with us cynical and pessimistic types.

I for one do my best to reconsider my beliefs regularly, and I bet I'm not the only one. Believe me, I don't want dieoff to happen. And I certainly don't plan on checking out myself if I can possibly help it. But I just can't quite convince myself, given the magnitude of the issues we're facing, that we're safe. And I have tried.

For myself, I am most definitely considering permaculture, and some of my friends are too; I plan to start a few late-spring practice plots this year. I have to start extremely small -- all I have is a balcony. But I want to start learning anyway, so that if I ever do manage to buy a small property, I won't be completely clueless about how to begin. Ultimately, my dream is to keep small orchards -- apples, walnuts, almonds -- interspersed with small gardens. Hopefully backed up against a wilderness area, so that I can knock about a bit and perhaps do a small amount of hunting or (humane) trapping as well.

You yourself introduced me, and I'm sure others here, to Fukuoka Natural Farming. I don't know much about it yet; but if anything can get us out of this mess, it sounds like just the kind of direction to go in. I'm pretty sure that Richard Manning would agree.

Where the fear comes in: scalability and timing. Scalability: Fukuoka's methods can and do compare with hydrocarbon-forced yields, but on a small scale. Can they feed six and a half billion, or more? Timing: if Peak Oil hits very soon, will there be time to make a worldwide shift before we're in serious trouble? Remember, two shifts -- equally important -- are needed: a drastic paradigm shift, complete with the forced dismantling of what will likely be a very reluctant agribusiness industry; and a complete retooling of infrastructure, including teaching everyone how to garden effectively, supplying them with tools, seeds and soil, and getting them started. (Think about how much trouble you've had teaching permaculture concepts to those on this site. How difficult will everbody else be -- including the politicians?) Anything else, I think, will simply take far to long to be of benefit to the world populace.

I think those who listen to people like you, and get started now, will stand a good chance of doing all right. I wish I could believe that the human family as a whole will be all right too. But given that Peak Oil may be very soon; environmental issues are looking more ominous by the week; soon the world's population will be 7 freaking billion people; and so far we've done, in effect, nothing to prepare -- well yes, I'm very worried.

And that water aquifer thing does scare the crap out of me.
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Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby Ayame » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 07:38:28

FAO says second green revolution needed for developing world that refuses to do anything but **** like bunnies.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')
Worried over soil degradation and low water reserves in countries like India and China, the Food and Agriculture Organisation says a second green revolution with emphasis on preserving natural resources is the need of the hour to feed the world's growing population.

"We not only need to grow an extra one billion tonnes of cereals a year by 2050 but do so from a diminishing resource base of land and water in many of the world's region and in an environment increasingly threatened by global warming and climate change," he said.
source


Yeah good luck with that mate!
Don't forget we need even more room to grow Lorenzo's biofuels aswell!
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby Doly » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 07:44:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', 'F')AO says second green revolution needed for developing world that refuses to do anything but **** like bunnies.


That is incorrect.

It takes a generation for people to figure out that if they have access to better medical care, most of their children will live, which means that they will have to practice some form of birth control (a concept that is new to them).

I remember my uncle once asking my grandmother why she didn't use contraceptives. She sincerely thought that they weren't available in her time. She wasn't even aware at the time that birth control was a possibility.
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 07:46:17

Yer, good luck, but a natural correction in numbers is a tad more likley.
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby Daculling » Tue 19 Sep 2006, 17:20:33

Off topic I know and maybe it's already been asked but... Raphael do you watch the Lost series and if you do, do you have any theories? No really, I want to know.
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 01:14:21

idiot. 8)

Seattle Times broke a story 3 days ago... The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation will chip in 147 million to wreak chaos and destruction on what remains of Africa's heritage of cultural, ecological and political sustainability....

Pig pile on the big money, everybody!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"making wiser and more efficient use of the natural resources available to us".


The ahem- GOAL of the first Green Revolution.

In other words, this time, the place (Africa) is already totally fucked over, so its okay.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"The task ahead may well prove harder," Diouf told the meeting last week.


Built in failure-mode: Hey, if it doesn't work out and makes things MUCH, MUCH worse, heck, its not our countries, er- continent- and hey its just "aid", right? Free money? Like, we didn't expect ANYTHING in return, right?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')He said 100 million people faced forced migration as a consequence of advancing diversification(sic- "degredation") and soil degradation while water reserves had started to run low in key grain areas such as India and China.[/b]


READ this... In other words, Asia no longer has food surpluses... because there is not enough water and America is friggin' bankrupt and the only thing it exports is Grain (food)... In other words, the "Green Revolution" that predicated ecological crises like the one in asia are being prescribed as "solutions" to encompass the ENTIRE CONTINENT of Africa.

This is insane!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')"We not only need to grow an extra one billion tonnes of cereals a year by 2050 but do so from a diminishing resource base of land and water in many of the world's region and in an environment increasingly threatened by global warming and climate change," he said.


The only official solution is more of the same, much more!

I think the endgame is that governments and large institutions will exercise all their financial and militarty power in a movement heavily dressed in "humanitarian" terms. The "solution" to a problem getting worse exponentially (the ecological collapse) will have at its center the heroic mythology that every human life means more than every other living thing in the world. In other words, they will destroy Africa to save it.

FUCK.

100 million person forced migration- from Africa- because ASIA can't feed it.

Does anyone recall the results of the recent forced migration in the Gulf states? Bill Gates waves around a pithy $147 million and all of a sudden the problem is solved???

I think we're in for some horrifying TV footage here kids. Hold on to your 9mm.
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby Zardoz » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 02:28:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '[')b]The only official solution is more of the same, much more!

...100 million person forced migration - from Africa - because ASIA can't feed it.

I think we're in for some horrifying TV footage here kids...

...and soon, I'm afraid. Things are deteriorating rapidly worldwide. The only question is how it will transpire. Will famine and starvation spread slowly, or will we awake one morning to the realization that hundreds of millions are suddenly on the brink of death?
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Re: Second green revolution needed says FAO

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 20 Sep 2006, 03:12:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'R')ead my threads...that's all I talk about.

The reconciliation of science and religion using the swastika as interface...


I don't think you will get the right kind of followers if that is your message.......
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Students! Your Good Green Idea Could be Worth $25,000

Unread postby bape » Mon 25 Sep 2006, 14:08:13

Found this cool article in Treehugger.com (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/ecoma... ) its about a competiton that mtvU and GE are running for undergrad and grad students. They have to come up with innovative and groundbreaking ideas for projects that would make their schools more environmentally responsible.

Here is a link to the site: http://www.ecocollegechallenge.com/
{Moved to environment forum by SPG}
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Re: Students! Your Good Green Idea Could be Worth $25,000

Unread postby rostov » Mon 25 Sep 2006, 15:59:02

The root of environmental problems is population footprint. I don't find anything on the site you quoted which addresses that.

May I reduce the number of staff and students within each of the participating institutions in that programme?
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Re: Students! Your Good Green Idea Could be Worth $25,000

Unread postby Laughs_Last » Mon 25 Sep 2006, 20:51:31

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Last edited by Laughs_Last on Sun 04 Nov 2007, 21:24:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Students! Your Good Green Idea Could be Worth $25,000

Unread postby Laughs_Last » Tue 26 Sep 2006, 07:56:12

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Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby Denny » Sun 20 May 2007, 12:07:35

I was looking atht eonline edition of the New York Times Sunday Magazine, and they have quite a good section today on green architecture.

What I am wondering, is just why so much of the leading edge stuff is going on outside North America. Look back 100 years go, and it was American architects, along with structural engineers, who led the world in building innovations. It seems we are richer, smarter and more hard working than most of the world, but we are lagging in new technology applications.

I recall in college, way back in 1975, celebrating "Earth Day" for the first time, and it was the general feeling then that we'd be leading a revolution of sorts to protect the earth, but in reality, we have shown ourselves to be even more wanton with the earth's limited resources than the generations before us. Let's face it, we have been hypocrites in this matter. And, we have bred a new generation behind us and raised them to only extend our wasteful ways. Andk in technology, it seems we do everything for the buck first and only secondly to stretch our capabilities.

I do not know why this came about, it seemed that the turning point was when Ronald Reagan took office and belittled energy conservation. The whole thing has been put on the back burner since. Now we see the rest of the world overtaking us, so it seems.
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby Kingcoal » Sun 20 May 2007, 12:56:36

Building anything in America has become so incredibly expensive that cost is generally the overriding concern. Energy efficiency is the tenant’s problem. Also, Europe is most all 100% urbanized. Zoning is very strict, thus, cities are revitalized. Compare that to the US where cities are left to rot and development sprawls into farmland. The driver for that is costs. For example, where I live, they have been trying to revitalize the downtown. The problem is that there really isn't any reason why suburbanites, the ones with money to spend and skills to sell, would want to come downtown to work/live/shop. The solution was to build "fake" downtowns in the countryside, complete with shopping malls, office space, apartments, condos and houses. Building a synthetic downtown was cheaper than revitalizing the old, authentic downtown. It's also much safer because the "just add water" downtown is brand new and has no crime, drugs, etc, for the suburbanites to deal with. The real downtown is bankrupt, needing tax revenue and rife with crime. Also, generally American cities have expensive labor unions. Compare that to the countryside and it becomes a no-brainer for developers.

In Europe, using strict zoning, they make sure that the business development stays in the cities. Labor unions too expensive? Oh well, where else are you going to build?

Because of this, the types of buildings that are often used for office space in the US are different than those in Europe. A modern office in the US is generally in the suburbs or rural areas. A US office worker often has a nice view of farmland or a large parking lot from his window. In the US, a modern office building might take up 100 acres and be only one or two stories.
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby Denny » Sun 20 May 2007, 15:32:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'B')uilding anything in America has become so incredibly expensive that cost is generally the overriding concern.
..

For example, where I live, they have been trying to revitalize the downtown. The problem is that there really isn't any reason why suburbanites, the ones with money to spend and skills to sell, would want to come downtown to work/live/shop.


I have noticed that situation in most U.S. cities. I'd say that Boston, Chicago, Toronto and New York have seen a a lot of revitalization, but in most places, its the donut effect for sure.

I am most familiar with the Toronto area, and while we do have a lot of suburban sprawl, there has been a lot of redevelopment in the city too. I'd actually say that billions of dollars a year go into this. If you look at the Beaches district or the old industrial Massey-Harris district near the Exhibition grounds the place has been more than restored, its actually been improved. The city popultoin has gonve up by about 300,000 n the past seven years.

I don't see why developers could not invest big money in a city like Detroit or Buffalo and accomplish even more as these places had some interesting architecture to begin with, better than T.O., but they have let it decay. With that investment, if they stir up interest they could make big money, as the land values in Detroit and Buffalo downtowns are so low now.

It seems like some kind of racial thing from what I see, that is separating people, and in these places the whites don't want to live with the blacks. But, if the land values went up, the slums would naturally be cleared out as the poor would leave for other places.
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby Waterthrush » Mon 21 May 2007, 05:58:06

Great article. I think that Republicans have so practiced the politics of demonization that every issue has become political - i.e. that even support for "green architecture" implies some implicit value for the environment and also some caution about fuel use. That cannot be conceded by Republicans. Also, there was a paragraph about the good work done by government agencies in passing regulations and planning benchmarks - quelle horreur! This so totally goes against 30 years of propaganda whereby anything originated by governments is wasteful and horrible.

See, the polarization has caught me up too. Six years ago I wouldn't so exclusively have targeted Republicans. This is how Bush and the Republican congress chose to govern. They kept their eyes shut to new realities and have made themselves an obstacle to anything environmentally positive and anything associated with the word conservation.
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Re: Why can't America lead in green solutions?

Unread postby oilfreeandhappy » Sat 26 May 2007, 00:46:41

One of the architects that was acknowledged in this article is an American. The article is pretty vague on details as to why these buildings are considered "green". I don't doubt that they have their features, but I think you sell the US short. Have you read about the Solaire building in NYC? This may well be the "greenest" high rise in the world.
www.batteryparkcity.org/Concept/green/p ... re_c10.pdf

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