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Russian secondary peak approaches?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Concerned » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 12:17:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I')t has begun.



Wow this is great! Capatilism and competition will make this a win win for everyone in the whole wide world. Ok perhaps for the Russians a little more than the west LOL

God damn that Putin who would have thought he would have taken that whole markets, freedom and competition thing seriously. I thought the plan was bury them with enough debt they would never get out from under it.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby lutherquick » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 12:23:07

You ain't seen nothing yet...
This is just the begining...
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 12:33:49

Putin always appeared to be a little crafty. :lol: More so than the US administration. :lol:
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Novus » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 12:49:36

I see a massive transfer of wealth about to go to Russia. A new economic super power was born today. If you wanted oil in the past the only choice was to buy dollars and trade the dollars for oil. Now you can do that with Rubles. Russia is one country the US can't use its military to bully around and stop such economic coups.

This is a huge turn of events. The dollar will be falling and this alone could produce $100 oil. Hold onto your nose, I smell a shit storm coming.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 13:00:24

So the Markets seem to be putting up a fight with the price per barrel falling.

So much for Demand Deconstruction. Could this be that rising prices were an inflated myth and with a new currency in play the world will fight over who can sell it the cheapest in order to keep interest in the petrodollar.

And with Russia being an exporter they have every right to under cut the petrodollar.

Its a plane crashing on full throttle if you ask me.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 13:01:43

Russian foreign exchange reserves are building up very fast, with an offical estimate made Tuesday that they will grow $5 to $6 billion (US) per month.

But they don't plan on keeping all those dollars:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ussia shift fx reserves from dollar
By Steve Johnson
Published: June 8 2006 17:28 | Last updated: June 8 2006 17:28

Russia became the latest country to shift a chunk of its central bank reserves out of the dollar, further eroding the standing of the greenback as the world’s de facto reserve currency.


Sergei Ignatyev, chairman of the central bank, said 50 per cent of its forex reserves were now held in dollars, with 40 per cent in euros and the remainder in sterling. Previously it was believed that just 25-30 per cent of the reserves were in euros, with virtually all the remainder in dollars.


Financial Times
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby perdition79 » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 13:11:44

This is the exact moment in America's history when the s--t hit the fan. Remember it well.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Kingcoal » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 13:19:58

Is it to early to start complaining about ruble hegemony? Actually, maybe it's a good thing; we can start blaming Russia for everything wrong in the world.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Petrodollar » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 13:37:53

Anyone have the figure for Russia's current oil exports in mb/d?

I know that total oil production is around 9.2 mb/d (circa late 2005), but I was curious what their export numbers are. I seem to recall approx. 5.1 mb/d, but I think that is 2004 CIA-sourced data.

So, here's some quick math. The projected drop in demand for dolllars/petrodollars at today's $70 per barrel would be approx:

5,100,000 mb/d X $70 dollars = $357,000,000 x 45 days (contract life) = $16,065,000,000 per cycle of Russian oil exports.

Now, assuming approx. 250 trading days per year (5.5 cycles) = $88,357,500,000 per year in Russian petrodollar sales. (for the decimally impaired, that's $88 billion per year)

So, we can deduct that ultimately (when Russia's oil is traded via this new exchange - assuming roubles are the unit of account and transaction currency) that customer's of Russia's oil exports (i.e. principally the EU) will not need those $88 billion petrodollars which they are currently using for those transactions.

Will Russia attempt to price its Urals against the dollar-based Brent crude or will they attempt to follow the euro's more stable valuation? I predict the euro due to its overwhelming stabilty and relative value over the dollar, and Russia has already stated its intentions:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Russia ends de facto dollar peg and moves to align rouble with euro
By Steve Johnson in London (sourced from the Financial Times)
Published: February 5, 2005


Link 1

...and more recently...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]The threat to a fistful of petrodollars
By Liam Halligan (Filed: 23/04/2006)

Link 2

I think next month's meeting of the G8 in St. Peterburg with Putin as the host will be a tense event given the unfolding erosion of petrodollar hegemony and its associated macroeconomic and geopolitical ramifications...

FWIW, Iran's oil exports are about half that of Russia (2.4 or 2.5 mb/d), so assuming the oil bourse opens next month using euros, in time (say 2007), the drop in demand for petrodollars could be another $44 billion - based on today's oil prices. This does not account for various Caspian oil exporters and other OPEC producers such as Venezuela who will likely utlize a euro-based oil transaction option, nor does that include the potential impact on dollar denominated petroleum based products and natural gas sales, etc.

Given that petrodollar flows are currently funding about 45% of the US current account deficit ($1 billion per day, every day), this is going to become a very big problem in the not too distant future. My question? Who is going to loan the US an extra $88 to $132 billion in 2007 and beyond in order to prop up the $805+ billlion US current account deficit once Russian and Iranian oil exports are not under petrodollar hegemony? Hint: I doubt it is going to be China, I think at $200 billion per year they'd had enough, and their #2 oil exporter is of course Iran.

Me thinks the results of upcoming Federal Reserve auctions will be important factor to watch. What happens if you hold an auction for several billlion in Treasury-bills - and not many people show up to buy them? Well, Bernanke may be glad that the pesky M3 statisitic was discontinued back in March...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has begun.


Indeed, it appears that a "basket of currencies" for international oil trades is beginning to emerge, and I'll take this opportunity to post this little excerpt from one of many documents revealed in David Spiro's book about internal US Treasury discussions circa 1978:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')...confidence in the dollar remains fragile. Recent and more frequent news reports regarding OPEC's growing disenchantment with use of [the] dollar for oil pricing further disturb the market. If OPEC changed the unit of accounting for oil pricing it could precipitate a major market reaction which would be in the interest neither of the Saudis, other OPEC members, nor the US."

-- Assistant US Treasury Secretary C. Fred Bergsten to Treasury Secretary W. Michael Blumenthal, in a Treasury department internal memorandum entitled, "Briefing for your Meeting with Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, John C. West", 10 March 1978, P. 1-2.


In his conclusion, Dr. Spiro's ground-breaking research offered some prophetic words on the macroeconomics of petrodollar recycling:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n this book, I argue that cooperation after hegemony seems unlikely in the extreme. Petrodollar recycling was unusual in that it was a severe shock to international economic stability. Yet insofar as the oil shocks were a symptom of US hegemonic decline, similar shocks can be expected in the future. International institutions do not have the capability to handle such threats to stability, and US unilateralism will prevent the strengthening of multilateral cooperative regimes.

Although the relative decline of US hegemony has led to an increase in observable power outcomes, the result ultimately will be worldwide economic instability. When it is in a period of relative decline, it is in the short-term interest of the United States to pursue unilateral exploitation of its dominant position. This interest is increasingly at variance with the international goals of confidence, stability, and cooperation.

— David E. Spiro, The Hidden Hand of American Hegemony: Petrodollar Recycling and the International Markets, Cornell University Press, 1999
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby roel » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 14:29:00

Well, there is a power grab somewhere, and countries smelling US blood and reacting like natural predators. Even the UN's 2nd man took a swipe yesterday, unimaginable 5 years ago.
But it's also self-protection: there is serious talk of readjusting the US dollar by as much as 50% on international markets, as well as the option of one party, let's say China, dumping greenbacks, which would hurt all other parties that hold them.
If you're Putin, you want your biggest deals, read EU, to be in a stable currency, read Euros. July 1 is the date set for full conversion. And the dollar will be the emperor's new money?!
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Leanan » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 14:59:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom now on, the price of Russian oil will not be determined only in New York.


Thanks for posting this article. Very interesting....
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 15:03:58

So this is only for the Ural oil. How much is produced in the region? How much is exported?
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby Kingcoal » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 15:04:27

Mr. Petrodollar, what do you think the US will do if you are correct? What does the US have to hock? Will we have to force our women into prostitution to pay for our debts?
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby LadyRuby » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 16:03:17

I don't really understand this oil trading business, but this report suggests that they're not actually selling oil, it's just a "financial instrument."

Anyone have any clue what that means?

Urals Oil Futures Begin Trading on RTS


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')rals oil futures began trading Thursday on the RTS, marking the first time the country's top blend has traded on an exchange.

...

Although the Urals prices are quoted in dollars, the contracts are settled in rubles according to the Central Bank's exchange rate. Investors cannot get delivery of any physical oil through the exchange -- all contracts are cancelled and settled in cash.

"Oil companies are not involved in this -- it's just a financial instrument,
" said Valery Nesterov, oil analyst at Troika Dialog. Nesterov said the contracts would provide "more opportunities to ensure market stability and hedge against price fluctuations."

In the future, the exchange will begin trading refined oil products, according to an RTS spokeswoman.

Maxim Shein, head of research at BrokerKreditServis, said the Urals futures would accomplish three things. Besides giving the Urals blend a continual, transparent price, the new contracts will also help the convertibility of the ruble and slow the growth in gasoline prices, he said in a research note.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby snowhope » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 16:30:21

This appears to be a major threat to the US$. Depending on how successful it becomes (and lets face it a lot of countries want to get out of the US$) it could be the start of the major US economic decline that most of us see coming.

I see no possible method to mitigate this decline other than a very major world changing event. I imagine this event would need to be at least an order of magnitude greater than 9/11 to have any appreciable impact or chance of stopping the impending depression.

In my opinion we should be very, very concerned about the next 6 months.

How did we (the West) dig a hole this deep..... :(
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby parsifal » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 17:13:58

But Russia still has problems of decling male population and an incubating HIV timebomb. Can a resurgent Ruble revers these trends?
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 17:21:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'I') don't really understand this oil trading business, but this report suggests that they're not actually selling oil, it's just a "financial instrument."

Anyone have any clue what that means?

Urals Oil Futures Begin Trading on RTS


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')rals oil futures began trading Thursday on the RTS, marking the first time the country's top blend has traded on an exchange.

...

Although the Urals prices are quoted in dollars, the contracts are settled in rubles according to the Central Bank's exchange rate. Investors cannot get delivery of any physical oil through the exchange -- all contracts are cancelled and settled in cash.

"Oil companies are not involved in this -- it's just a financial instrument,
" said Valery Nesterov, oil analyst at Troika Dialog. Nesterov said the contracts would provide "more opportunities to ensure market stability and hedge against price fluctuations."

In the future, the exchange will begin trading refined oil products, according to an RTS spokeswoman.

Maxim Shein, head of research at BrokerKreditServis, said the Urals futures would accomplish three things. Besides giving the Urals blend a continual, transparent price, the new contracts will also help the convertibility of the ruble and slow the growth in gasoline prices, he said in a research note.


Based on what is known so far, these are similar to US futures contracts. Most futures contracts settle by delivery of the actually commodity, usually at a specified time (or range of times) or place (or places). Some futures contracts however settle for the cash value of the contract on its expiration date (or range of dates).

It could be argued that the use of cash settlement makes these contracts less marketable, since the contract doesn’t guarantee the actual delivery of the needed commodity. I believe the reason they did this was done, at first, is because of the desire to get oil trading in rubles started by July 1. You may also be aware that there is a strong movement in Russia to use the ruble for all transactions. It is also expected that the price received for Urals oil would be increased by having an active market for it, if traded in rubles, and sellers would gain by eliminating foreign exchange risk and transaction costs [as Petrodollar explained above].

I have not heard as to whether they will be setting up delivery mechanisms soon.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby JPL » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 17:33:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('snowhope', 'T')his appears to be a major threat to the US$. Depending on how successful it becomes (and lets face it a lot of countries want to get out of the US$) it could be the start of the major US economic decline that most of us see coming.


A note of caution here. I reallly don't see any Bourse based in Rubles taking off.

In my last job I worked for a company that traded around the world and had a major FX risk. We had a global profit margin of around 2% and part of my job was to deal with FX 'threats'.

On that margin we couldn't deal with any currency that was 'unstable' and there was NO WAY that we would ever do a big deal in Rubles.

It's not just an issue of FX, our golden rule was, if you have a surplus in a currency that's not your own (GBP, in my case), you dump it to those customers/clients ASAP and get rid.

We didn't have many Russian customers so I used to dump the cash as fast as possible (shudder).

I'm not saying the Ruble has a bad prospect right now but it has a bad reputation historically and that lingers in people's minds. If I was a major oil buyer right now I would NOT make any deal in Rubles.

Now if Putin had done this market in Euros, that would be different. That would be interesting for me.

Maybe National Pride got in the way...

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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby DantesPeak » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 17:47:31

Well I did find something that indicates that, yes, they may be setting up a delivery point for oil:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '6')/7/06 WPS: Russ. Oil & Gas Rep. (Pg. Unavail. Online)
2006 WLNR 9715418

Russian Oil and Gas Report
Copyright 2006 WPS Media Monitoring Agency

June 7, 2006

Issue 53

Section: INDUSTRY EVENTS

RUSSIA MAY CREATE A STRATEGIC OIL AND GAS RESERVE

Russian authorities propose creation of a strategic oil and gas reserve with a minimum size amounting to 5 million tons. According to Director of the Federal Reserve Agency Alexander Grigoryev, this is necessary for the state to be able to correct the market in case of high prices of petroleum products or fuel deficit inside of the country. In case of deficit of demand or supply on the oil exchange to be opened in 2007 raw materials from the reserve will be supplied to the market or, on the contrary, excessive quantity of oil will be supplied to the reserve.

The proposal of the Federal Reserve Agency is most likely aimed at creation of a mechanism that can offer a tool for influencing of excessive fluctuations of internal Russian oil prices to the state. In this case the matter is about reserves different from those created in case of war or natural disaster. Trade at the Russian oil exchange will begin in 2006 and starting from 2007 prices of Russian oil and petroleum products will be determined on this marketplace. Alexei Kuzmichev, co-owner of Alfa Group and ideologist of establishment of a Russian international oil exchange, explains, "When the exchange starts working there will be various interventions and other correcting actions on the part of the state. With assistance of the reserve mentioned by Grigoryev it is really possible to influence prices efficiently."


Sorry, I could not find a link for this story.
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Re: Russia Bourse Begins Trading Urals Oil

Unread postby snowhope » Thu 08 Jun 2006, 18:24:32

Traditionally / historically I agree JPL and you make very good points. But we are in a fast changing geo-political world - who would have though even 5 years ago that countries such as Iran, Russia, and increasingly some West African countries would gain the power and influence they have now?

I presume until relatively recently the US$ would have been considered a stable currency and the Euro didn't emerge until 5 years ago! What currencies were stable in the recent past and are stable now has and is changing rapidly.

Putin is a clever man and I think they are planning long term - the axis of power is changing as we watch. Chindia have yet to play there hands and of course and the Iranians keep threating a Euro bourse. All of the above is a threat to the US$ and I can only see it going one way unfortunately. The question for me is how fast and deep will the crash be..... no wonder gold is popular.
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