[pedalling_faster]

Semi-random Behavior - any Entropy Experts in the Crowd ?:
i welcome responses from everybody, but i would especially like to hear from people that took all those advanced physics classes that involved the study of Entropy.

according to the laws of Entropy, it is theoretically possible for an ice-cube to form in the middle of a lake on a hot summer day. at least, this is what an engineering professor told us in college.it may not have ever happened, but it's still theoretically possible.

anyway, i have the impression that Entropy relates to Chaos. that is, in a closed system, entropy & chaos increase, not decrease, and this is related to fundamental laws of thermodynamics.

so - what happens when a group of statistically anomalous events occur, in fairly rapid succession ?
examples -
1. yesterday, i was at a club and and a very highly skilled tai-chi instructor walks onto the stage and delivers a 15 minute lesson. i've watched 7th dan aikido instructors & similarly skilled ashtanga instructors do demonstrations, and this was similar. but it was not scheduled or planned. it was semi-random. this has never happened before at this club, they normally have writing workshops and open-mike nights.
2. an hour later, at the same club, we had a guitar workshop. this was scheduled. the guy who scheduled it said he's been trying to do it for a year but it's never "happened". i learned to play G, C, and D chords and to strum along without messing up the guys who actually know how to play the guitar.
3. this morning, i placed a cup of coffee on the floor in the dark when i was taking out the laundry. i forgot about it and couldn't see it and kicked it, fairly hard. it smashed into a door, broke the handle into 2 pieces - and stayed upright.

the first 2 are events that are outside my control. i could kick a million coffee cups and i doubt i could repeat what happened this morning.

so - how do the laws of entropy relate to complex biological systems & sociology ? if a series of statistically anomalous events occur around me (similar to singularities, but i wouldn't call them singularities) (and possibly relating to a temporary, localized decrease in entropy), does this mean that somewhere else entropy is increasing ? e.g., a car accident, Heaven forbid, mail delivered to the wrong address, etc.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', '
')
so - what happens when a group of statistically anomalous events occur, in fairly rapid succession

this morning, i placed a cup of coffee on the floor in the dark when i was taking out the laundry. i forgot about it and couldn't see it and kicked it, fairly hard. it smashed into a door, broke the handle into 2 pieces - and stayed upright.

so - how do the laws of entropy relate to complex biological systems & sociology ?

[PrairieMule]

Good topic,

I scrapped by in Physics during High school so I am not much of a expert, but I do follow a similar theory. Studing Business in college I learned of the critical path analysis for assembly line production. It's not so much the Entropy or Chaos theory as much as it is managing or minimizing it. It basiclly works like this, if to make a product it takes 5 tasks Murphy's law can happen at any time for any task. The concept is to focus skill, energy and resources for the early tasks to lessen the severity of a log jam in production.

Here is a example, let's say we need to get somewhere 6 miles away and we are in a time crunch. There are 5 stop lights between here and there so we look for opportunities to save time early in the drive by driving a little faster or running a yellow light. Thus time saved leaves us with a lower probability we hit red lights later on. Kind of like how people who file their tax returns get their refund faster than a person who files it a week or two later(before e-filing).

[Dreamtwister]

Wait...are we talking about thermodynamic entropy, or statistical entropy?

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'W')ait...are we talking about thermodynamic entropy, or statistical entropy?

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'W')ait...are we talking about thermodynamic entropy, or statistical entropy?

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', 's')o - how do the laws of entropy relate to complex biological systems & sociology ?

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'T')he question of how order arises out of chaos is quite fascinating, but the Laws of Thermodynamics don't tell us anything useful in this regard.

[pedalling_faster]

working on 1 1/2 cups coffee ...

i think the laws of entropy as a subset of the laws of thermodynamics do not apply directly to human behavior, that is, they do not provide a model of human behavior.

for example, if we all agree to organize the desktops on our computers, and our filing cabinets, and to vacuum the living room, on the same day, though we might be reducing the chaos in a virtually closed system (the surface of the earth on which we live), it just means we have ... uh ... organized our stuff a little.

there is & will be huge overlap, however, between the laws of thermodynamics & those of human behavior. we all need our 2000 calories a day (which i think are kilocalories), some of us take showers, some of us take baths. Those behaviors that we depend on - food, hot water, COFFEE -are directly affected by the laws of thermodyanmics.

that is, if we prepare, we'll be in better whatever for the guitar lesson, or the impromptu tai chi demonstration.

and cheney said the American way of life is not negotiable.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'S')o moving forward from the Big Bang or the moment of Creation, penguins are in fact quite improbable unless some intelligence has guided their development.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', ' ')your perspective on life? I am always open to hear a good argument.

[Kachina]

Calling all experts...

Is the earth an open or closed system?
If it was an open system before…why is the ozone hole such a big deal?
And why do the experts never agree?
Why am I caught in the crossfire of intellect trying to sort out the conflicting views of the experts?
Does the truth exist beyond those experts who claim they know?

With great interest the 'experts' now claim wave/wave duality not the wave/particle duality many experts previously built their careers on....and many experts here rely on…

So is the earth open or closed?
When we use terrestrial energy…does entropy increase?
When we use non-terrestrial energy…does entropy increase?

Many people talk about solar collectors.
Plants are solar collectors, more efficient than anything we could ever design.
Plants combine terrestrial and non-terrestrial resources to provide food and shelter…the essentials.

Plants may even power our machines…
The human body is an essential machine.
But to power our MANY toys we will need hydrocarbons or something other than solar.
Is this too obvious?

The lesson here is … he who has the most toys in the end wins.
They win the game of entropy accumulation, contributing to the overall disorder…randomness…chaos, essentially the energy which has become unavailable to succeeding generations…the children from whom we borrowed the future.

I can argue one point here…the past and present use of energy (with a corresponding increase in overall entropy) will affect the future.

Kachina

p.s. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ngrist & Hepler wrote: Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine made entropy decrease is accompanied by an even greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Earth was, is and will be an OPEN system as long as it existst.
Why it is open system?
- We are receiving energy from external sources like Sun, Galaxy, visible Universe.
- We are also radiating away energy into interstellar space.
- We are exchanging information (in quantum mechanical sense) with outside world.

When it would be closed system?
- If energy exchange mentioned above (as well as any information exchange with outside world) does not take place.

Further:
In OPEN system ozone may decay, but DOES NOT HAVE TO DO SO.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') can argue one point here…the past and present use of energy (with a corresponding increase in overall entropy) will affect the future.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'E')arth was, is and will be an OPEN system as long as it existst.
Why it is open system?
- We are receiving energy from external sources like Sun, Galaxy, visible Universe.
- We are also radiating away energy into interstellar space.
- We are exchanging information (in quantum mechanical sense) with outside world.

When it would be closed system?
- If energy exchange mentioned above (as well as any information exchange with outside world) does not take place.

Further:
In OPEN system ozone may decay, but DOES NOT HAVE TO DO SO.

[NEOPO]

So we are still screwed or not Monte?

Cause if we arent I want to put down these organic gardening magazines,sell my seeds and silver on ebay and then get back to making porno movies with my posse of bi sexual ho's

I have so much credit but I am afraid to use it!!!

I thought laws were laws and only theories were debateable?;-)