[RacerJace]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he faster we streamline our technology, the faster we speed up the transforming process, the faster available energy is dissipated.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', ' ') This doesn't have anything to say about the utility of technology or the ability of technology to improve our lot.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RacerJace', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he faster we streamline our technology, the faster we speed up the transforming process, the faster available energy is dissipated.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'E')ntropy is hard to argue and hard to explain as logical entropy and thermal entropy are interrelated: technology creates a thermodynamic entropy decrease (increase in efficiency) at the expense of an even greater increase in thermal entropy somewhere else,

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'T')he 2nd Law of thermodynamics only refers to thermodynamic entropy. There is no law of logical entropy.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I') am still not sure whether to laugh or cry about your statement that your weird version of entropy does not apply to living organisms.

[Ludi]

I think in order to avoid these continuing debates, avoiding the use of the term "entropy" except in a strictly thermodynamic sense might be advisable. Because Monte seems to have clarified his use of the word about fifty times and he's still being attacked for using it "incorrectly."

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his doesn't have anything to say about the utility of technology or the ability of technology to improve our lot.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')If I get in my car and drive somewhere, where is the thermodynamic entropy decrease?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', ' ')I'm sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant technology was able to improve the efficiency with which we use energy. And again the 2nd law which is what you were quoting doesn't have anything to say on the ability of technology to improve the efficiency with which we use useful energy to achieve our objetives.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'E')ntropy is hard to argue and hard to explain as logical entropy and thermal entropy are interrelated: technology creates a thermodynamic entropy decrease (increase in efficiency) at the expense of an even greater increase in thermal entropy somewhere else, and creates logical entropy in the form of pollution or matter dissipation. Thermal entropy can be quantified, logical or matter entropy, while just as irreversible, is not a measurable entity; it just tends towards "chaos."

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'N')ot talking about the ability of technology to improve our lot. I'm talking about the price we pay for doing so.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', ' ')If I get in my car and drive somewhere, where is the thermodynamic entropy decrease?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'L')ife is a biological machine. Both life and our machines ("technology") require a constant throughput of energy to produce useful results. A byproduct of the process is always an increase in entropy

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'I')f I let my car coast downhill, I am converting potential energy to heat. To get uphill I convert chemical energy to heat. In both cases usable energy decreases, entropy increases. With entropy, you can't win, and you can't get a free lunch, remember?

Life is a biological machine. Both life and our machines ("technology") require a constant throughput of energy to produce useful results. A byproduct of the process is always an increase in entropy.

[Ludi]

Oh thank goodness! I thought this would never end!

[MonteQuest]

I am going to split the "debate" from the explanation of the laws so as not to confuse those just learning of them.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobcousins', 'L')ife is a biological machine. Both life and our machines ("technology") require a constant throughput of energy to produce useful results. A byproduct of the process is always an increase in entropy

[DoctorDoom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Any system which is free of external influences becomes more disordered with time. This disorder can be expressed in terms of the quantity called entropy.

In our post-peak world, we will not have the "external influences" required to reduce or reverse entropy and maintain our standard of living, much less our current population. Entropy Law tells us that a society's energy flow must be reduced to as low a point as possible in order to sustain the unfolding of all life as far into the future as possible. The entropy economy we are headed for is one of necessities, not luxuries.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e would still have the external energy of the sun. Although diffuse, we have technologies for harnessing that energy. Even if we didn't, we could maintain our standard of living for quite some time by continuing to increase the entropy of the Earth if we had another energy dense fuel to switch to after oil runs out. We do: uranium.