[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen why didn't we start by producing modern PCs ? If you were to build the two items from scratch, you will probably find that one is several orders of magnitude more difficult than the other ( I'll let you guess wich one ).

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', 'I') have to wonder why there are so many ventilators in my computer then. And why they sell 450W power units when back a few years ago you only needed 300W.

[JustinFrankl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', 'I')f you were to apply the "finger over the hole" technology to the same number of trips as the old technology you certainly would produce more entropy since it requires a little bit more effort to carry the pail with your finger over the hole than it does to let it freely swing from the end of your arm. But since you need only half as many trips with the new technology the overall amount of free energy expended and entropy produced is less. The effort required to implement the new technology is much less than the benefits received. Ie. a free lunch.

[Z]

Pilferage, that was irony.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', 'T')hat being said, with the exception of video games, one doen't need very much to run most applications out there.

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', 'I') beg to differ. There are lots of applications that require considerable processing power ( video processing, computer graphics come to mind ).

[Z]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pilferage', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd the culprit, like in your car example, is the low cost of energy.

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Z', 'I') do not think this is a cultural thing. It is hardwired into humans, because we have evolved in an environment that was scarce on resources. For example, there is no biological mechanism to prevent us from becoming too fat, although it may be life-threatening in itself or in regard to escaping predators. Our consumerist societies are just extrapolations of these tendencies. It seems that there is no such thing as 'enough', be it on the side of the consumer or on the side of the industry. Advertising in this case may just weight on a natural human tendency.

[iisthatwhichiis]

Hi,
pilferage 8:16 9-26-05 writes,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')"Car manufacturers have also done this. Any change in engine efficiency is seen as an excuse to use more power, instead of having $19k cars that put out 50hp and get ~80mpg, we have $19k cars that put out 90hp and get 50mpg..."

[pilferage]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('iisthatwhichiis', 'N')eato, where can I get one of these $19k cars that put out 90hp and get 50mpg. Around here they cost $30K to $50K put out 250hp and get 10 mph.

Peace

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('whereagles', 'M')onteQuest: I think you're missing one thing here.

From your posts, I have the impression you think of entropy like some fixed quantity that comes out of a process whether you like it or not. Well, that's not true. Every real-life process has a reversible and an irreversible part. The irreversible part is basically dissipation of energy into heat and does increase the universe's entropy. But the reversible part does not increase the universe's entropy. The less it dissipates, the more efficient the process is. The amount of entropy you produce is not fixed, but varies with the process efficiency. An electric heater has almost zero efficiency (nearly all electric energy is transformed into heat), but a state-of-the-art torsion pendulum is close to 100% efficiency.

Now, let's take the above and plug it into the complexity issue. Complexity means "more processes". That would normally mean more entropy and more need for free energy. However, if you cut on the dissipative part, you can do more with the same free energy. So I don't think you can say "more complexity = more entropy = more need for free energy = back to stage 1". That would be a bit too simplistic.

There are two things that can solve the world energy problem: 1) better efficiency and 2) ability to use new free energy sources. As you can see, complexity isn't even one of them, although you probably need complexity to reach higher efficiency levels.

I'm not saying a techno-fix is going to save the world, but I do think it's wrong to assume it's useless.

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'N')o, I'm not missing anything. Increasing efficiency of a system reduces the entropy of that system. But, the processes that occur in other systems to increase that efficiency come at a price; increased entropy of that system. More entropy to hold at bay.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nero', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hink of the processes/new parts/wastes produced, etc. that must occur to increase the efficiency of anything.

[cheRand]

Pilferage says:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow that I think of it, I read an article a while back regarding over consumption. Apparently, it's prevailent in individuals who have had to go without food at some time during their lives. But in individuals that are always well fed, there is no overconsumption of food. In fact, I'm pretty sure now that it's not physiological at all. I could find the article for you if you'd like?

[nero]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou show me an example of a "fingers-in-the-holes" technology and I'll show you a baling wire fix. We don't do things that way. We engineer complex systems that require numerous energy transformations.

[iisthatwhichiis]

Hi All,

In reading your posts which are mostly 6 ft over my head, I hearby put in one small toe gingerly... (dips toe)

The earth receives X to the umteenth degree amount of energy each day from the sun otherwise known as the solar constant which is believed to be between 1,353 and 1,395 W/m2 (approximately 1.4 kW/m2, or 2.0 cal/cm2/min)..
The earth gives off x to small number degree amount of energy from it's nuclear core.

Large X plus small x in turn is radiated into space + or - each day.

Some small percentage of X + x through millennium has been retained on earth by storage in carbon (trees, coal, oil, etc.), nuclear, ocean water, and other.

This small percentage of X + x that has been stored is all that can be used and manipulated by man and other beings at our current state of knowledge and technology.

Gradually as the heat from the sun lessens the earth will gradually freeze and mankind with it after we have used the above stored resources unless:

1. We learn how to utilize ZPE.
2. Find some other currently unknown energy source.
3. Escape to Europa which we will also screw up.

(jerks toe from seething cauldron)

Peace.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('iisthatwhichiis', ':')-D Hi All,

In reading your posts which are mostly 6 ft over my head, I hearby put in one small toe gingerly... (dips toe)

The earth receives X to the umteenth degree amount of energy each day from the sun otherwise known as the solar constant which is believed to be between 1,353 and 1,395 W/m2 (approximately 1.4 kW/m2, or 2.0 cal/cm2/min)..
The earth gives off x to small number degree amount of energy from it's nuclear core.

[iisthatwhichiis]

Hi Omar, All,

Omar writes:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')olar energy is diffuse, unreliable and expensive. That number is probably an average. It neglects the fact that the earth is 70%, efficencies in solar power are the worst in the energy business, production costs for solar panels are still magnitudes of order above commerical utilization and at its core, solar power is simply too intermittant for a global economy.

[whereagles]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Increasing efficiency of a system reduces the entropy of that system. But, the processes that occur in other systems to increase that efficiency come at a price; increased entropy of that system.

[Drjay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, but they don't say you can't make things more efficient. Only that you cannot make an engine more efficient than a Carnot engine

[whereagles]

An "engine" is something that transforms some type of energy into mechanical energy. That can be done in several ways.

A Carnot engine uses the heat flow from a hot source to a cold one to generate work. No other thermal machine can have better efficiency than the Carnot machine, but non-thermal machines can have better efficiencies, yes.