[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('elroy', 'F')rom what I read elsewhere, they were given the wrong marine maps, the maps showed they were still a mile away of the reef while they ran on top of it. Can't really blame them. Plus they said they'd pay the fine and apologized profusely.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', '
')Untypical, however, is how Specop managed to sound like a mostly-decent human in a thread everyone expected him to be a liberal-bashing ass in. Yay for him.

[arocoun]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc', 'S')orry...don't see there is necessarily a direct correlation between being a liberal and being stupid. In fact I think you are the only one who made a connection.

[arocoun]

Specop--The ocean sounds cool. I'll have to go to one some time.

[frankthetank]

I like that "Redneck Yacht Club" video...maybe thats what was going on down there in Mexico...?

[TorrKing]

Even without the grains being made for a fossile fueled agriculture we would be in big trouble. What do you think would happen in a food shortage crisis? The seeds for new growth will be eaten. That always happens, even if the seeds are more needed than ever. Equally with livestock, game, fish etc.

Torjus Gaaren

[coyote]

Some days I feel more doomerish than others. Today I was gloomy enough to look up 'Green Revolution,' knowing full well I wouldn't find anything good. Didn't take long at all:

Wikipedia

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wikipedia', 'T')he revolution began in 1945... This produced astounding results...

From these early successes in Mexico, the technologies were exported abroad, finding use in regions all over the world... The success in increasing yields was undisputable. The growth of crop yields was such that agriculture was now able to outstrip population growth — per capita production increased every year following 1950.

Since improved crop yield was produced mostly through the use of heavy fossil fuel inputs (discussed below), the increased efficiency of hybrid strains is geared towards these inputs; that is, the strains are more efficient at exploiting the chemical fertilizers used, and also are designed to be easier to harvest mechanically.

[Zardoz]

Jesus! Yet another item to add to the list of converging catastrophes! I had no idea of this one.

How the hell are we going to avoid huge die-offs? How can we make "transitions" when we'll be struggling with so many titanic problems?

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ncidentally, the world population in 1950, about when the Green Revoluion started ramping up, was about 2 1/2 billion people -- 4 billion fewer than today. (Census)

Now go ahead and toss in arable soil depletion, desertification and especially the global water aquifer depletion crisis, looming ever larger.

Well, guys? Anyone want to make fun of doomers? Because this does seem to be what we're facing if hydrocarbon production plummets. Even if we here prepare enough to do all right with our families, this may not be much fun to witness.

[IslandCrow]

For small scale production, that is people having their own garden, one of the answers is the composting toilet. Rather than mixing our waste with purified drinking water and send it to some plant the other side of town, it would be better to use our waste to increase the fertility of the land (taking certain health precausions along the way...ie not using it too soon).

Now that the snows have almost gone, I suppose I will have to repair that old outhouse by the corner of our plot of land.

Regarding return to the 17th century....I would hope that some of the knowledge, of later years such as better crop rotation, green feed for winter food for animals, better strains of fruit trees etc, would not be lost and that even without oil humans would be in a better situation to cope. This is not to belittle the difficulties caused by many more mouths to feed, which will more than wipe out the gains of better knowledge.

[Doly]

Fertilizers aren't a problem with peak oil. That's a classic doomer misconception.

Firstly, because usage of oil for essential things (and fertilizer certainly qualifies) will be the last thing to go. We'll do without all luxury items and some not-so-luxury before fertilizers could possibly be an issue.

Secondly, because hydrocarbons aren't such exotic molecules. They're actually very common. You can get fertilizers from plenty of other stuff (manure and plants, like in the old times). It's just that right now, oil is the cheapest raw stuff you can get them from. When oil gets more expensive, we will get fertilizers from other raw materials. It isn't a problem at all.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'F')ertilizers aren't a problem with peak oil. That's a classic doomer misconception.

Firstly, because usage of oil for essential things (and fertilizer certainly qualifies) will be the last thing to go. We'll do without all luxury items and some not-so-luxury before fertilizers could possibly be an issue.

Secondly, because hydrocarbons aren't such exotic molecules. They're actually very common. You can get fertilizers from plenty of other stuff (manure and plants, like in the old times). It's just that right now, oil is the cheapest raw stuff you can get them from. When oil gets more expensive, we will get fertilizers from other raw materials. It isn't a problem at all.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'F')ertilizers aren't a problem with peak oil. That's a classic doomer misconception.

Firstly, because usage of oil for essential things (and fertilizer certainly qualifies) will be the last thing to go. We'll do without all luxury items and some not-so-luxury before fertilizers could possibly be an issue.

Secondly, because hydrocarbons aren't such exotic molecules. They're actually very common. You can get fertilizers from plenty of other stuff (manure and plants, like in the old times). It's just that right now, oil is the cheapest raw stuff you can get them from. When oil gets more expensive, we will get fertilizers from other raw materials. It isn't a problem at all.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, how are you supposed to get the quantities of manure neccesary to sustain modern agriculture. Transporting enough manure is hopeless without cheap energy. Manure just isn't compact enough.

The transition to such an agriculture is impossible in the timeframe we are talking about here. Even if we had 30 years it would most definately be impossible. The reason is quite simply that the farmers will not have the economical means for doing so before it is too late (the market and governments are too shortsighted). There are too many things that would have to changed.

[Ludi]

In order to eat post peak oil, more of us will need to garden, but there is no particular need to "farm" unless you want to raise food to give or sell to other people.


"We'll all have to farm or starve" is a popular PO myth I'd like to bust.


http://pathtofreedom.com/

[Raxozanne]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')Firstly, because usage of oil for essential things (and fertilizer certainly qualifies) will be the last thing to go. We'll do without all luxury items and some not-so-luxury before fertilizers could possibly be an issue.

[nocar]

Well, one of the Green advocates (I believe John Seymore, spelling?) years ago said that the "modern agriculture has taken one solution and neatly split it into two problems". In Europe, pre-1950, farms used to have mixed production, both livestock and grain/veggies. Then, livestock manure had a very short distance to the fields. Now most farms either produce meat/dairy/egg creating mountains of polluting manure or produce grains/veggies, needing to buy fertilization.
The pre-1950 farms required more labor, thus higher food costs. Teh point I am making is that in order to eat post-peakoil , more of us must work on farms, and those of us who do not must pay more for our food. Going overseas for vacation will be a thing of the past, as we will have less money to spend (and the air plane ticket will cost more).

nocar

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')n order to eat post peak oil, more of us will need to garden, but there is no particular need to "farm" unless you want to raise food to give or sell to other people.


"We'll all have to farm or starve" is a popular PO myth I'd like to bust.


http://pathtofreedom.com/

[Heineken]

There will be fewer of us in the future. That will "solve" a big part of the impending food problem.

[Ludi]

Torjus you're missing my point. I agree we'll have to learn to raise food, but we won't have to be farmers, we can be gardeners, which is much easier.

http://www.growbiointensive.org/biointe ... NSIVE.html