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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:01:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'B')obbolov,
Actually your problem is worse. You have expressed belief in dismissing all belief.

What you are proposing sounds suspiciously like fundamentalist atheism, which is a dogmatic belief system in its own right.


Nonsense. You can verify for yourself in your own life the fact that you can live without belief by trying it on for size. You are projecting your preconceived notions on me without any first hand experience that I can discern. Have you tried to dispel beliefs in your own life but failed somehow to come to this assessment of yours?

I will ask you the same question I asked PMS, what belief do you hold that you absolutely cannot live without or are convinced that no one else can live without?
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Unread postby threadbear » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:29:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', 'B')obbolov,
Actually your problem is worse. You have expressed belief in dismissing all belief.

What you are proposing sounds suspiciously like fundamentalist atheism, which is a dogmatic belief system in its own right.


Nonsense. You can verify for yourself in your own life the fact that you can live without belief by trying it on for size. You are projecting your preconceived notions on me without any first hand experience that I can discern. Have you tried to dispel beliefs in your own life but failed somehow to come to this assessment of yours?

I will ask you the same question I asked PMS, what belief do you hold that you absolutely cannot live without or are convinced that no one else can live without?


For one who abhors 'isms', Bobotov, you seem to be revelling in nihilism. Your views on belief are cursory and lack an understanding of their essence. You would have to read Rupert Sheldrake to get a better fix on that.

The upper class homes in New York's upper east side are full of nihilist gen Xer's hooked on heroin. We all need hope and they don't have any. Worse than that they also actively advocate against it. We all need a double dose of sentiment, schlock, and cornball romanticizing that goes with being attached to others, the natural world and the invisible, whether we know it or not. That's what makes us human.

I can peg your age and education and class pretty much by your ideas. Rather than being an iconoclast, your ideas are typical for your group.
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Unread postby MD » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:37:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')You are projecting your preconceived notions on me without any first hand experience that I can discern.


Truly! You are using discernment to project an opinion?

You are soaking in belief!

Your argument caves in on itself. Talk about nonsense.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:49:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')
I can peg your age and education and class pretty much by your ideas. Rather than being an iconoclast, your ideas are typical for your group.


Please do peg my age, class and education. If you are wrong can I call you an asshole?
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 12:50:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')You are projecting your preconceived notions on me without any first hand experience that I can discern.


Truly! You are using discernment to project an opinion?

You are soaking in belief!

Your argument caves in on itself. Talk about nonsense.


Well, do you operate without discernment to form opinions? Sounds pretty reckless to me. You never answered my question either.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:04:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')First of all what would be the necessity of hiding meaning in reverse speech? Is it a secret code? A message from God, a terrorist or aliens? Then as bizarre as it may be then it is intentional.
If you read these posts a little more closely then you could post more cogent posts yourself. There is no 'necessity of hiding meanings'. It isn't reputed to be a 'secret code' or a message from God:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The theory is that the infant brain first learns speech by analysing what they hear in a last thing heard to first thing heard order. And in making their first efforts to speak themselves speak backwards. Later on the brain developes and turns it all around and most of us lose the ability to speak or hear backwards. The early patterns remain in the mind however so that we effectively speak from time to time in a kind of palindrome manner except that the reverse speech isn't saying the same thing as the forward speech is saying.


If it is true, then it is a natural component of the evolutionary hypertrophied communication apparatus of Homo Sapiens Sapiens. (why are atheists so truculent?)
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:07:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')For one who abhors 'isms', Bobotov, you seem to be revelling in nihilism.



Nihilism:

1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths

2 a (1) : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility (2) capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination

I never said existence was senseless and/or useless. What I said is that beliefs were unnecessary to live.

If you choose to identify your existance with beliefs then that is your problem. I never advocated destruction, terrorism or assassination except in so far as killing beliefs. For someone who wants to lecture me philosphically I would think that a better understanding of the words you choose would better serve your purpose.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:11:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I')f you read these posts a little more closely then you could post more cogent posts yourself. There is no 'necessity of hiding meanings'. It isn't reputed to be a 'secret code' or a message from God:


Then what pray tell is the significance or purpose of the backwards speech having any meaning? It just happens arbitrarily? Isn't that sort of like an infinite number of monkeys writing all the great works of literature - i.e. a mindless and purposeless but serendipitously arranged so that we impose meaning on it because it seems to match real literature?
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Unread postby threadbear » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:18:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')
I can peg your age and education and class pretty much by your ideas. Rather than being an iconoclast, your ideas are typical for your group.


Please do peg my age, class and education. If you are wrong can I call you an asshole?


Either way, you can call me perceptive. Your emotional response is exactly what can be predicted of the intellectually precious. Sorry Bobbotov, but you're not the smartest guy in the room here, nor the wisest. Underneath the arrogance is incredible anger.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:23:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')Then what pray tell is the significance or purpose of the backwards speech having any meaning? It just happens arbitrarily?
How would I or anyone know the 'significance or purpose' of the phenomenon? Has anyone ever really conclusively worked out the 'significance or purpose' of dreams? Answer: no, just a bunch of theories and hypotheses. In fact, the reverse speech thing shares commonalities with dreams: metaphorical and obscure meanings. Just as some will say that dreams are arbitrary and meaningless, so reverse speech (if its really happening) could be deemed meaningless. Of course my take on dreams is well known around here.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:25:27

>Either way, you can call me perceptive. Your emotional response is exactly what can be predicted of the intellectually precious. Sorry Bobbotov, but you're not the smartest guy in the room here, nor the wisest. Underneath the arrogance is incredible anger.

What a whimpy response. Sorry, no substance to it. As far as anger is concerned I will add more smileys :)
Last edited by Bobbotov on Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:29:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:28:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'H')ow would I or anyone know the 'significance or purpose' of the phenomenon?


So you have built a belief on something that you cannot even discern has any meaning? Sorry but that seems pointless to me.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:29:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', 'W')hat a whimpy response. Sorry, no substance to it. As far as anger is concerned I will add more smileys :)
Well as we all know, posting here is not just a two-way communication. You say its an inadequate response, but I, fortunately don't require any validation from you. There are others reading this to whom I also direct my remarks. :)
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:30:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', 'W')hat a whimpy response. Sorry, no substance to it. As far as anger is concerned I will add more smileys :)
Well as we all know, posting here is not just a two-way communication. You say its an inadequate response, but I, fortunately don't require any validation from you. There are others reading this to whom I also direct my remarks. :)


Actually, that was for Threadbare and not you. I sense you are more hopeful than that.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:36:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'H')ow would I or anyone know the 'significance or purpose' of the phenomenon?


So you have built a belief on something that you cannot even discern has any meaning? Sorry but that seems pointless to me.
Comedy of errors. OK, let me respond to this then. Again, you miss the point. I happen to believe that dreams are profoundly meaningful and bring knowledge if you can read them. Same would go for RS if it is true. And as I said, I give it 60/40 its true.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 14:17:22

Dreams may or may not have meaning. I do not know for sure. I have explored the meaning of dreams and I have found my experiments have proven fruitless. It seems to be the unconcscious manifestation of brain house cleaning while our bodies rest. Once again, it also appears the conscious part of our minds is trying to impose meaning where there may not be any. But since I do not know for sure the meaning of dreams does not mean I will jump to believing they have meaning. They are too recondite to construe the meaning without imposing symbolic significance and that then becomes an interpretive state of mind which is very "iffy."

Have you thought that perhaps you wish for dreams to have significance and therefore believe they do?
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 14:25:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', ' ')They are too recondite to construe the meaning without imposing symbolic significance and that then becomes an interpretive state of mind which is very "iffy."
All true. Many questions of 'meaning' are iffy. If you have a positivistic outlook then you have to throw it all overboard. If you are willing to follow intuition and 'belief' you can turn up some amazing things that are not positivistically verifiable but you run the risk of subscribing to a delusion. The opposite pole, however is to run the risk of impoverishing one's self in meaninglessness. Take your pick.
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Unread postby Bobbotov » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 14:55:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', ' ')They are too recondite to construe the meaning without imposing symbolic significance and that then becomes an interpretive state of mind which is very "iffy."
All true. Many questions of 'meaning' are iffy. If you have a positivistic outlook then you have to throw it all overboard. If you are willing to follow intuition and 'belief' you can turn up some amazing things that are not positivistically verifiable but you run the risk of subscribing to a delusion. The opposite pole, however is to run the risk of impoverishing one's self in meaninglessness. Take your pick.


If I allow myself to be deluded then I can benefit from unverifiable but amazing things? Yes, I can believe in Santa Clause and benefit from some fictitious stranger blessing me with gifts. Except the gifts are really coming (if they come at all) from people I know and not people I imagine. The opposite pole (no pun intended in regard to Santa) is that I KNOW other people are providing the gifts. But, if I give up my illusion are you saying that I cannot enjoy the gifts for what they are and from where they came without impoverishing myself?

Please clarify your meaning.
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Unread postby MD » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 15:03:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')
I will ask you the same question I asked PMS, what belief do you hold that you absolutely cannot live without or are convinced that no one else can live without?


I believe you are prepared to respond regardless of what answer I provide. Therefore you really don't require an answer. Go right ahead and make your point.

Flippancy aside, you will have to be quite a bit more clear in your question. Are you asking me to state beliefs that if absent will cause me to expire?
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Unread postby MD » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 15:05:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MD', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')You are projecting your preconceived notions on me without any first hand experience that I can discern.


Truly! You are using discernment to project an opinion?

You are soaking in belief!

Your argument caves in on itself. Talk about nonsense.


Well, do you operate without discernment to form opinions? Sounds pretty reckless to me. You never answered my question either.


Absolutely I use discernment. You are not allowed to do so though, because that would require you to believe in your assumptions.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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