I dont believe in...

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Tue 12 Jul 2005, 23:47:48

So here is the criticism offered by The Sceptic's Dictionary: Oates charges lots of money for his training program. (that proves nothing) Oates claims that the reverse speech signals come from the right side of the brain every 10 to 15 seconds, but no brain scans show this heightened activity. (well so what, Oates is not a scientist, what would he know about where or how it occurs, he's just the guy who discovered it). There's a little more but the gist of it comes down to the same objection that has been raised in this thread: its just suggestion. Say to someone 'here's what you'll hear' and sure enough that's what they hear. That is pretty thin criticism. The words are clear enough. If someone tells me I am going to hear 'squirrels are the pope's oven mitts' and it isn't there, I'm not going to hear it. Some people might hear it if they are suggestible. I'm not. I once went up on stage as a volunteer to take part in a hypnotist's stage act. I was sent back to my seat because I couldn't be hypnotised. This isn't suggestion here. I'll go look for better criticism, but if this is the best I find then that settles it for me.

http://skepdic.com/backmess.html

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 00:30:09

Here's another one: http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-03/reverse-speech.html

Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal

Again, very thin criticism. I read these kinds of websites to get their take on things. Once I heard a scientist on Coast to Coast AM talking about his experiments involving communication with dead people. The presentation on the show was pretty interesting and made some amazing claims. I decided to research in the sceptical internet sites. I found what I was looking for which convinced me that the guy's experiments were nowhere nearly as convincing as he sounded presenting them on the radio. Nonsense was my own conclusion. There's nothing in these sites to dissuade me from giving credence to what is on Oates' website. This quote, indeed, is interesting:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough we seriously doubt the existence of reverse speech, we may be wrong. We encourage Oates or anyone interested in the possibility of reverse speech to conduct empirical investigations. Oates has said that he desperately wants research conducted on reverse speech (Lamorte 1997). Many of his claims involving unconscious thoughts and metaphors are by their nature untestable.

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 00:45:04

Unless somebody has anything else to contribute to this, I'll leave you with one last suggestion for an experiment: have somebody load up some of these tape examples and not tell you what is supposed to be said in reverse speech. Then listen to them and see if you hear anything like what Oates says is there. Simple, huh?

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 11:35:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')hat's too Zen for me. For me, there are things I do believe to be true, things I don't believe to be true, and a lot in the middle category of 'well, I just don't really know about that.'

by **max_power29** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 11:41:30

I don't believe in religion. Its all stupid bogus crap invented by people to mind control other people. Its all a bunch of superstitious bogus crap!

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 11:55:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'I') don't believe in religion. Its all stupid bogus crap invented by people to mind control other people. Its all a bunch of superstitious bogus crap!

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 12:28:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', '
')Belief is the place holder for knowing and has nothing to do with verifiable truth because if it did you would know and not have to be believe.

You cannot know something and believe it at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 12:50:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
Much of what people think they 'know' is just belief in authority. Nowadays that is mostly belief in science and scientists. Do you have any first hand knowledge that the general theory of relativity is fact? Not likely, more likely you 'accept' it or concur based on the prestige and authority of Einstein. Confidence is from Latin and means 'with faith' or 'with belief'. Science is marvelous and I have a great deal of admiration and confidence in what it hs achieved. Nonetheless, science has only scratched the surface of reality and most of what is reality remains unknown. If you had to live and act based upon what you 'knew' to be 'verifiable truth' then you would have to never get out of bed in the morning because you aint got that much of it. Most of what you think you 'know' is just belief.

by **Sunspot** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 12:58:27

I didn't read all the posts, so this may have been mentioned, but my favorite book on the subject of science vs. belief is Carl Sagan's last message to us all: "Demon-Haunted World".

by **max_power29** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 12:59:36

They say there are only 2 sure things: Death and taxes

by **max_power29** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:06:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', ' ')As children we can be coerced by authority figures into believing all kinds of things from the Easter bunny, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy to all manner of theories including those of science and religion.

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:14:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', ' ')

... the belief delusion...
...children can be coerced by authority figures into believing... the Easter bunny, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy
The pattern of coercion ...

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:34:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '
')
Show me someone who truly believes in nothing and I'll show you a catatonic vegetable. (people might say they believe in nothing, but that's just because they aren't very honest or philosophically astute)

by **threadbear** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:36:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bobbotov', ' ')

... the belief delusion...
...children can be coerced by authority figures into believing... the Easter bunny, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy
The pattern of coercion ...

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:39:28

No struggle except to get you. bobbotov, to realize some apparently not so obvious facts of life. A waste of time I see.

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:46:16

Well, since you can't admit you know little you certainly can prove it.

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 13:52:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
') I don't think there's much to free speech, .

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 14:10:04

PMS, you remind me of the joke about a man who goes to visit a friend at a psychiatric hospital. When he finishes his visit he finds his car has a flat tire. After removing the wheel he inadvertently knocks the lug nuts into a storm drain. A man raking leaves nearby sees this and tells the motorist to remove one lugnut from each of the other three wheels allowing him to put the wheel back and at least get to a service station. The motorist remarks that it is a brilliant idea and then asks the man if he is a patient.

The man puts down his rake and comes over to the motorist and relates to him in a whisper that he is but he is being kept against his will and he would appreicate it if he could a message to his family so they could get him out. The motorist agrees and as he is pulling away he gets hit in the head with a brick. As he turns his head, dazed and confused he sees the man with the rake holding another brick yelling, "don't forget now!"

by **PenultimateManStanding** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 14:26:03

Interesting little story, bobbo. So you're what, the guy with the rake? :lol:

by **Bobbotov** » Wed 13 Jul 2005, 14:33:50

No, I am the guy who believes in nothing, remember? And since you cannot believe that someone doesn't believe in anything you will always be a victim of your own ignorance. The fact that people can hear things in reverse speech is the same trait they have in seeing faces on Mars, in clouds, in peeling paint. The fact that you point to Mr. Oates as proof shows you have no direct knowledge and need a crutch to substantiate your belief. Knowledge needs no crutch. As if Mr. Oates could end the argument emphatically. For all I know he's just another weak minded crackpot. But since I don't know I will most definitely not believe it nor will I need to.

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