Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Powers that Be

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: TPTB

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 31 Dec 2015, 21:11:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SeaGypsy', ' ')A global controlling fascist elite singular would have no need of obfuscation, proxy & psy ops warfare, they would simply kill anyone opposing them.


Obviously, you have read zip about any of these groups. They don't work that way. In the book review forum there is a link to a PDF file of my book. Give it a read.

You are wrong on that, I know a lot about exactly how they work & it is criminal. I think you & I only disagree in terms. I don't see a controlling elite, although I can see who & why certain people would gain the tag. I see a bunch of criminal gangs operating above & below the surface, rooted almost exclusively on the same core empire funds established over millennia. I'm not going to bang my head over the semantics, without going now & digesting your book, I know you are a solid thinker & would not be making a stupid argument.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 31 Dec 2015, 22:40:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ')And just what would you or any world leader you can name have done at that moment that would have been better? And how would you have done it without traumatizing the children present?


That excuse is patently absurd, given the security risks and importance of Bush being informed and making decisions as Commander in Chief.

Bush did not say one word. He did not ask Card any questions. He did not give any orders. He did not know who (or which country) was attacking, whether there would be more attacks, what military plans had been taken, what military actions should be taken—indeed, he knew virtually nothing about what was going on outside the room. He just sat there reading a book about a pet goat.


Maybe that's all he had in him at the moment. Maybe he just drew into himself and wanted to curl into a mental fetal position and hide?

Know one really knows, but there are many possibilities.

It's not what you would have done, but his brain most likely doesn't work like your brain.

While I don't think they orhchastrated the event (they aren't that smart) I do think that, as you said, they capitalized on it and spun it for their own ends. Which is bad enough. And what is worse, the population applauded it.

Politicians are just like Madison Ave. they are selling sex and power, and we always buy in.
Last edited by Newfie on Thu 31 Dec 2015, 22:54:55, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18651
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 31 Dec 2015, 22:50:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'D')uring ascendancy of resource consumption and population growth the elite looks upon the middle class as an asset to aid in their wealth accumulation. During contraction the middle class becomes a liability. A powerful elite that begins to horde for themselves and increase disparity of wealth weakens the middle class, the largest segment of consumers. If the elite succeeds to the point of reducing the global middle class to serfdom, will this be positive for our biosphere?


Not to quibble with your assessment, but I don't know if that same pattern will hold this time. Thinking out loud I see two counter arguments.

1. The hoarding makes sense in a society where you are living fairly close to the land. So the Chiefs want to control the grain so they have something to eat. But at this moment we have this huge glut of fake "stuff".. What would you hoard? Sure the elite could build bunkers and stock it with food, but that really takes so little of their wealth as to be trivial. So I don't see the hoarding diminishing the middle.

2. The second point is related in that our current measure of wealth is so distant from the reality of goods as to be meaningless. I believe that when the SHTF one of the first things to go will be our monetary system. That will pretty quickely evaporate the elites accumulated "wealth" disparity. Not entirely, they will still have goods. Bill Gates valuation is based on the extrapolation of what MS stock last sold for. If that stock value goes to 0 then his wealth pretty much goes away. But the "consumers" will still need to eat, not type.

Pretty raw thoughts, need honing.

Good or bad for the biosphere? Not a clue. Way too many variables.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18651
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Thu 31 Dec 2015, 23:29:15

The powers that be are different depending on context. It is usually a social majority clinging to repressive, conservative, or outdated ideals. It is purely context specific.

Consider that TPTB in the 70s considered it sinful to have children out of wedlock, and how many people were forced into marriages because of unplanned pregnancy. TPTB would shame GBL people for decades and forced gay people into the closet. TPTB create and enforce fascist laws that most people in society have moved beyond. TPTB represents the majority of popular belief memes that shame, persecute, exclude, defame, and otherwise make life miserable for anyone who wants to make a different life choice.

I heard of a fellow who had a 100% solar powered house, but he was banned from living in it because TPTB couldn't figure out a way to tax his energy usage.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... city-grid/
Rod_Cloutier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1448
Joined: Fri 20 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 00:37:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Pretty raw thoughts, need honing.

Good or bad for the biosphere? Not a clue. Way too many variables.


We don't know shit. The only words of wisdom I can come up with 25 minutes before midnight and the beginning of a new year,
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby vox_mundi » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 00:57:52

At the end of the game, the pawn and king end up in the same box.

Have another drink for me Ibon. Good luck in the new year and enjoy the karma your actions have earned.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
User avatar
vox_mundi
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3939
Joined: Wed 27 Sep 2006, 03:00:00

Re: TPTB

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 01:05:47

Funny that, karma actually means work, enjoy the work your work has earned you, sage advice ;)
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 05:26:07

The Old World Order is not going to just let a NWO take away its power.
Ready to turn Zombies into WWOOFers
User avatar
Shaved Monkey
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed 30 Mar 2011, 01:43:28

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Pops » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 10:47:20

In the early 1900 Michaels said that no matter the organization, even if it's goal is completely democratic, it will inevitably develop an oligarchy. Elites are unavoidable because bureaucracy is unavoidable at some level of complexity. Once there is the slightest delegation of power from the group to an individual, specialization begins. Specialized knowledge empowers the bureaucrats and those once delegates quickly become delegators.

The book I mentioned in the other thread "Twilight of the Elites" posits that in America we've taken our meritocratic idea to the point that we have a culture of promoting "smartness" to the top but wind up with dumb, out of touch, self-referential bureaucrats and institutions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here is too much social distance separating the people in charge with the folks subject to their decisions. Thus Catholic bishops who sympathized more with molesting priests than their victims, Senators who send men from a class they rarely encounter to fight the wars they approve, and the disaster planners who couldn't conceive of how the timing of Hurricane Katrina at the end of the month would affect the ability of poor residents to evacuate. There is a long history of Americans complaining about the gulf separating them from their leaders, from the 'distant, unresponsive' King George to the 'out-of-touch, inside-the-Beltway' politicians of today.



His solution is redistribution. But while inequality is a easy target, and obviously has tilted too far in the direction of trickle-up, I think the better solution is to actually start expecting the oligarchs to perform, and not just on their entrance exam. They need to serve under greater expectations and experience bigger penalties when they fail.

Really, that is what TEAs, OWS, Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders are about
.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 11:00:45

Some good points Pops about the inevitability of Elites and in fact the hierarchical structure given a certain level of complexity. After all, you cannot really have everyone making decisions for various reasons. First their will never be unanimous consensus, second some are not apt to make certain decisions either because of lack of expertise, vested interest or emotional attachment. So what is the solution? A question I am sure many have pondered over time. First I would say a binding contract or constitution that stands the test of time and cannot be changed or altered easily by a small group. Second, a horizontal type of management decision making process. This is being utilized in some companies. It involves active participation and input by all and a form of voting to establish consensus on a particular issue. I believe also the American Indians utilized something akin to that, by many having input even while relying heavily on wise elders. That would be the other manner to address this problem. To have a council of particularly wise and virtuous persons who the society/community would rely on to formulate certain ideas and deliberate on proposals put forth. They however would not have absolute power and they would be periodically replaced organically or if they overstepped their mandates.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Pops » Fri 01 Jan 2016, 12:40:38

Hayes argued that our treasured meritocracy naturally morphs into oligarchy.

His central example was a prestigious school in Manhattan that used testing as its sole means of admittance — so, well off people simply employed tutors and testing coaches to get their kids in. Turns out the pinnacle of meritocracy was just as influenced by social class as any other institution.

So I don't know what to do, aside from, as I said, begin to hold the powerful to account when they fail to manage effectively.

Hard to tell if the current political climate is heading in that direction or not. Sanders and Trump get about the same poll numbers and both are attacking TPTB.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: TPTB

Unread postby careinke » Mon 04 Jan 2016, 23:32:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') remember watching 9/11 on live TV. The sheer novelty of the idea of using airliners as cruise missiles paralyzed me as much as George W. Bush. In fact I could not grasp the concept until minutes after the second plane struck on both towers. It had to be deliberate, then - as much as I did not want to believe it.

Attributing to a government conspiracy the quite normal mental resistance to a startling new concept is both unnecessary and foolish.


You obviously were not a Tom Clancy fan at the time.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 5047
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 00:00:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'H')ayes argued that our treasured meritocracy naturally morphs into oligarchy.


“Never forget that the iron law of oligarchy always obtains; few people will always run everything, no matter what the institution or what the country.” —James Madison
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 00:12:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'I') remember watching 9/11 on live TV.


Less than two months after the attacks, Bush made the preposterous claim that he had watched the first attack as it happened on live television. On December 4, 2001, Bush was asked: “How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?” Bush replied, “I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower—the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it.”

Think about that. Bush's remark implies he saw the first plane hit the tower. But we all know the video of the first plane hitting did not surface until the next day. Could Bush have meant he saw the second plane hit—which many Americans witnessed? No, because he said that he was in the classroom when Card whispered in his ear that a second plane hit. And we know that was true because we watched it on TV. And he wasn’t whisked off, because he stayed at the school to hear the children read.

Then on January 5, 2002, Bush reiterated this same lie: “Well, I was sitting in a schoolhouse in Florida ... and my Chief of Staff —well, first of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And you know, I thought it was pilot error and I was amazed that anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And something was wrong with the plane...”

In his speech to the nation that evening, Bush said: “Immediately following the first attack, I implemented our government's emergency response plans.” Duh…don’t think so, Dubya.

Where and how was Bush able to watch the first plane hit on TV? Makes one scratch their head, doesn't it?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 06:27:22

MQ, you seem to want to believe with 20/20 hindsight that it was completely obvious what was going on from the beginning. It definitely was not - there were many media outlets that did no live 9/11 coverage at all - and did no offline reporting until after the first tower collapse. An airliner hitting a skyscraper would be something you see on the evening news - until the second plane, or the third. All the cameras pointed at the smoking tower and providing live coverage captured subsequent impacts - and obviously, this was then no accident - and it was hours after the initial reports before most caught on - including me who watched the whole thing live in my living room.

Again, there is no reason to assume conspiracy when simple incompetence will serve. Television reporters are selected for appearance, not intelligence.

The POTUS is surrounded by people who serve the same purpose as the Laputian Flapper in Gulliver's Travels.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
The Laputians

The Laputians are a race of weirdos whose heads are always leaning to the right or left and whose eyes never focus on the world around them. They live on a floating island controlled by a central magnet. The fact that they float through the air without direct ties to the Earth is pretty symbolic. These guys love two things: math and music. In both of these, they are very far advanced, but you know what they stink at? Anything practical. They can't build houses with right angles, and they can't sew clothes that fit. The reason all of their designs fall apart is because they refuse to take measurements from real life, preferring instead to use equations to prove what has to be true.

Still, despite the fact that Laputa floats, it does have political connections to the continent below it, Balnibarbi. All of the Laputian King's ministers have their estates on the continent, so the King can't just enslave the people living under their island. But the King does maintain a strict tribute policy. If the people below Laputa do not send their tributes, well, there will be hell to pay. The King will float his island right over their heads, blocking the sun and rain and dropping stones on them until they pay up. So you can see, even though the only thing these people really know is music and math, they still like to dabble in world domination – just human nature coming through, yet again.

The Flapper

Laputians are so distracted with their internal world of Deep Thoughts that they need to be reminded of what they are doing at any given time. That's why all the Laputian nobility must be accompanied by a servant at all times. These servants carry a kind of rattle at the end of a long stick that they use to touch the mouth of a Laputian who is supposed to be speaking, the ear of a Laputian who is supposed to be listening, and the eye of a Laputian who is supposed to be looking at something.

The Laputian Ladies

Because Laputian men spend so much time wrapped up in their own heads, they don't have much time for their bodies, if you know what we mean, and we imagine that you do. They're not big in the love department. So when men from the continent come to visit Laputa on business, Laputian women are totally willing to have affairs left, right, and center – they love strangers. And their husbands never notice, after all. They're too busy with their math and music to notice their wives stepping out on them. This is one possible explanation for the origin of the name "Laputa," from the Italian la puta, "whore." (For more on Swift and women, check out our theme on "Gender.")

The Lagado Royal Academy

The Lagado Royal Academy is a lampoon of the Royal Academy in London in Swift's day (Lagado being the main city of Balnibarbi). The experiments Gulliver records – men trying to turn poo back into food, extract sunbeams from cucumbers and so on – were real things that eighteenth century scientists tried to do (source: Robert Greenberg, Editor, Gulliver's Travels. New York: Norton, 1961, 133). It sounds like there were some pretty ripe candidates for the Ig Nobel awards hanging around back then.


The Laputian flapper is a servant who carries around a flapper - a dried pig's bladder on a stick - and whose job it is to "flap" his master's ear or eye when in the opinion of the flapper - there is something being said that his master needs to hear, or something that his master needs to see.

It may have been published in 1725, but today's pols have the same failings as did those in early 18th Century London. The more prominent pols are surrounded by circles of flappers - the modern names being staff members, cabinet ministers, personal secretaries, administrative assistants, and the like. These flappers of the great man in turn surround themselves with additional flappers, in order to reinforce their own sense of importance. Somebody like the POTUS has so many flappers that a minimum wage employee - or perhaps an unpaid intern - makes the first cut of what the POTUS needs to know about. Swift was actually fearful of being charged with treason for publishing his satire of "modern" politics, and toned down his original draft before publication. Instead he identified a major weakness of politics - higher ranking pols are increasingly disconnected from reality by circles of flappers.

Clinton I, Bush II, and Obama are all ripe for satire if you ask me. But inspired literary lunacy such as Gulliver's Travels is no longer being written, another casualty of the Internet. Nobody much bothers to read thoughtful and insightful analysis of past events today, much less biting satire - instead they retain the incomplete first impressions and the erroneous assumptions made by the stupid-but-pretty in front of a video camera. Accuracy in reporting is one of the prices we pay for a live network.

Although they are dying, monthly glossy news magazines in print provide far more accuracy and a degree of analysis and a thoughtful perspective that one will never get from the Internet. Most people would be better informed by ignoring TV and the Internet and simply reading the news - but reading is not a passive activity, it requires effort and thought.

http://www.shmoop.com/gullivers-travels/
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 11:16:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'M')Q, you seem to want to believe with 20/20 hindsight that it was completely obvious what was going on from the beginning...Again, there is no reason to assume conspiracy when simple incompetence will serve.


How does that explain my question? Where and how was Bush able to watch the first plane hit on TV? I'm not claiming conspiracy, I am claiming he couldn't have done what he said. And if he did, it raises even more questions. Who would have had a live feed of the first crash for Bush to have watched?
Last edited by MonteQuest on Tue 05 Jan 2016, 11:21:14, edited 2 times in total.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Pops » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 11:17:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')Never forget that the iron law of oligarchy always obtains; few people will always run everything, no matter what the institution or what the country.” —James Madison


The funny thing is, Madison was in favor of that oligarchy. That quote (which seems to have originated with Gore Vidal, I never have found it from Madison) was theoretically in response to the question, "How do you control such a large number of elected representatives?"

https://mises.org/library/our-oligarchs ... es-madison
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')adison’s greatest fear was political decentralization and disintegration, and upon reading No. 10 and other Federalist writings, it quickly becomes clear that many of them were obsessed with the idea of the United States being torn apart by separatist and rebellious factions. This preoccupation is easy to understand if we remember that the convention of 1787 was born out of hysteria over domestic terrorism. That’s not the terminology they used at the time, of course, but the catalyst for the convention was Shays’ Rebellion. The response of the wealthy elites at the time — people like George Washington and James Madison — was to call for a massive expansion of government power to ensure that any future resistance movement could be easily crushed.


Federalist #10
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.').. to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country, and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations.


IOW, free, white, male, property owners will elect free, white, male, property owner representatives who will, by dint of being free, white, male, property owners, have the wisdom to discern the true interests of free, white, male, property owners.

--
With universal suffrage the property owners have been presented a problem, the great unwashed now vote. The current solution (aside from disenfranchisement) is to simply go around the whole "representative" bit and influence government policy directly via the swinging door of post government employment. Can't be accused of bribery for getting a lucrative job after your distinguished career in "public service."
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Cog » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 12:26:55

Unless you are a property owner and paying taxes, you probably have no business voting. You have no skin in the game.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 12:55:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'M')Q, you seem to want to believe with 20/20 hindsight that it was completely obvious what was going on from the beginning...Again, there is no reason to assume conspiracy when simple incompetence will serve.


How does that explain my question? Where and how was Bush able to watch the first plane hit on TV? I'm not claiming conspiracy, I am claiming he couldn't have done what he said. And if he did, it raises even more questions. Who would have had a live feed of the first crash for Bush to have watched?


Monte,
Maybe your observation is meaningful, and maybe its not. It could be something as simple as them trying to spin a good story, make a good sound bite. Nothing to do with reality at all. Who among us would do the kind of fact checking you are doing?
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18651
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean
Top

Re: TPTB

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 05 Jan 2016, 14:29:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')
Less than two months after the attacks, Bush made the preposterous claim that he had watched the first attack as it happened on live television. On December 4, 2001, Bush was asked: “How did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?” Bush replied, “I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower—the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it.”

Think about that. Bush's remark implies he saw the first plane hit the tower.


No it doesn't.

He says he saw "a plane" hit the tower.

So did I

So did millions of Americans.

After the first plane hit the networks went "live" to the WTC and millions of people saw the second plane hit. Then they replayed it over and over and over again.

Sorry to pop your conspiracy bubble

Cheers !
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron