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THE Detroit Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Detroit : No way to shrink a city

Postby jdmartin » Tue 05 Feb 2013, 16:38:30

pstarr, maybe not, but I'm of the opinion that any little bit counts. Like that old saying "Think global, act local".

There is actually hope for redacting the global economy. As transportation gets more expensive, 3rd worlders demand higher wages, and more Americans become desperate for jobs, it has gradually become cheaper to make things back here again. Nothing earth shattering, as we're just moving more towards a lower point of equilibrium, but again it's better than the alternative.

Or we can blow the whole thing up and see what happens :)
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby kublikhan » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 16:37:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n Thursday, the city of Detroit filed for chapter 9 municipal bankruptcy. The city’s municipal emergency manger’s filing represents the largest bankruptcy in American history.

“The filing would begin a 30- to 90-day period that will determine whether the city is eligible for Chapter 9 protection and define how many claimants might compete for the limited settlement resources that Detroit has to offer,” the Detroit Free Press reports. “The bankruptcy petition would seek protection from creditors and unions who are renegotiating $18.5 billion in debt and other liabilities.”
Breaking: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he City of Detroit filed this afternoon for Chapter 9 bankruptcy protection in federal court, laying the groundwork for a historic effort to bail out a city that is sinking under billions of dollars in debt and decades of mismanagement, population flight and loss of tax revenue.

Detroit’s would be by far the largest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history, in terms of the city’s population of about 700,000 and the amount of its debts and liabilities, which Orr has said could be as high as $20 billion. Because of the stakes involved, and the impact on residents statewide, as well as 30,000 current and retired city workers and Detroit’s ability to stay in business, the case could be precedent setting in the federal judiciary. It could also set an important trajectory for the way troubled cities nationwide settle their financial difficulties.
Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering debts
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 17:03:21

(Reuters) - Detroit residents pay the highest local taxes on a per capita basis compared to other Michigan municipalities, while the city collects the biggest chunk of state shared revenue, according to an analysis released on Monday.

The report by the Citizens Research Council of Michigan, a public policy group, comes just days after a state-appointed emergency manager stepped in to try and resolve Detroit's fiscal problems. The council found that Detroit's tax rates -- including property, income and other local taxes -- are high versus other Michigan cities.

Its residents also bear a bigger tax burden as a percentage of income than those in other large U.S. cities even as the city struggles to stay fiscally afloat.

"They get a lot of money on a per capita basis. They just can't control their spending," said Bettie Buss, the council's senior research associate and the report's author.

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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby westexas » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 17:13:27

The GELM (Government Export Land Model)

Let's think of local and state, and for that matter, national governments as being similar to oil exporting countries, in that they consume a percentage of tax revenues and net debt infusions, in order to pay current benefits to employees and operating expenses and to pay current and future retirement/health benefits.

And let's just really focus on current and future retirement benefits.

As Michael Lewis noted in his recent book, "Boomerang," a lot of local governments, especially in California, are on track to consist of little more than a small staff that collects taxes and forwards virtually all tax revenue to retirees. And of course, most public pension systems are assuming a (highly unrealistic) estimate of 7% to 8% on future annual returns. Of course, the lower the actual investment return, the larger the unfunded pension obligation.

In any case, if we assume flat to declining tax revenue, combined with rising retirement obligations (especially as investment returns continue to disappoint), it seems to me that the net result would be an accelerating rate of decline in services provided to the taxpayers, perhaps even as governments try (probably) unsuccessfully to materially raise tax revenue, by raising tax rates.

From an Amazon review of "Boomerang"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uoting Lewis quote UCLA neuroscientist Peter Whybrow in the book's last chapter (on California's financial problems, not European countries), Lewis writes, "'Human beings are wandering around with brains that are fabulously limited. We've got the core of the average lizard.' Wrapped around this reptilian core is a mammalian layer (associated with maternal concern and social interaction), and around that is wrapped a third layer, which enables feats of memory and the capacity for abstract thought. 'The only problem is our passions are still driven by the lizard core.' Even a person on a diet who sensibly avoids coming face-to-face with a piece of chocolate cake will find it hard to control himself if the chocolate cake somehow finds him. Every pastry chef in America understands this, and now nueroscience does, too. 'In that moment the value of eating the chocolate cake exceeds the value of the diet. We cannot think down the road when we are faced with the chocolate cake.' ... Everywhere you turn you see Americans sacrifice their long-term interests for a short-term reward."
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby dorlomin » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 17:14:11

Not a surprise at all.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 17:44:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote(' ', '.').. Everywhere you turn you see Americans sacrifice their long-term interests for a short-term reward."


???

Michael Lewis' book is about BANKERS. They may well be motived by short term rewards (i.e. bonuses) but the situation in Detroit has an entirely different cause. It reflects a decades-long incremental policy failures among the politicians who run Detroit.

The government workers in Detroit aren't too blame for their high pensions and healthcare costs. Theoretically people go into government jobs precisely BECAUSE they are sacrificing short term rewards for a long term payback------government jobs generally come with pension plans, which are seen as making up for the lower wages paid to government employees. IN practice, of course, goverment jobs often pay HIGHER waves than the same private sector job.

I don't think the problem with Detroit has anything to do with people looking for a quick buck in the short term irregardless of their long term interests. The problem in Detroit took decades to develop and involved many small incremental mistakes in increasing city taxes---the problem is that eventually Detroit city sales taxes and property taxes and income taxes got so high that rich and middle-class people moved out, leaving behind a city government with salary and pension and social welfare obligations that were too large for the remaining tax base, i.e. spending was out of control. 8)
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Plantagenet » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 19:24:14

Image

That was then. This is now.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Lore » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 19:38:09

Detroit's end game has been telegraphed for some time now. I agree, no surprises here. Just the weakest link in a long rusty chain breaking. Expect more to follow in the coming years. Chicago anyone?

You only have to look at the changing demographics of the country in both the aging population and the economic sea change in the way of doing business. We as a country can no longer afford to support a huge retired populace on the backs of unskilled, underpaid part time workers combined with ever more costly basic raw resources.

My friends the great American experiment is in serious jeopardy. Also no surprise here on PO.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Lore » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 21:12:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I')t was "Arab Spring."

Next. "Michigan Spring"

Then. "<Your City> Spring"


Real Michiganders do not acknowledge Detroit as being part of the state and yoopers don't believe they are as well.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Fishman » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 21:35:11

"It was always white racism, hucksterism, and anti-unionism that destroyed america."
Except in of course in Detroit where decades of Democratic rule, black racism, and unions did the dirty deed.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Lore » Thu 18 Jul 2013, 21:43:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', '&')quot;It was always white racism, hucksterism, and anti-unionism that destroyed america."
Except in of course in Detroit where decades of Democratic rule, black racism, and unions did the dirty deed.


Balony, here read the tail and learn something.

Detroit: An American Autopsy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159420 ... d_i=507846
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby John_A » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 00:49:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fishman', '&')quot;It was always white racism, hucksterism, and anti-unionism that destroyed america."
Except in of course in Detroit where decades of Democratic rule, black racism, and unions did the dirty deed.


Well, building the likes of these things didn't help.

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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby dorlomin » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 06:02:09

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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby westexas » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 07:20:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ichael Lewis' book is about BANKERS. They may well be motived by short term rewards (i.e. bonuses) but the situation in Detroit has an entirely different cause. It reflects a decades-long incremental policy failures among the politicians who run Detroit
.

Lewis has a chapter about government retirement benefits in his book. Regarding sacrificing long term benefits for short term gain, it's relevant because politicians have routinely over-promised, and underfunded, retirement benefits for government workers. Regarding Social Security, we basically see the same thing. Congress could have kept Social Security as a pay as you go system (with a lower Payroll Tax), or put the "Trust Fund" assets into something other than self-serving IOU's, but they wanted credit for "saving" the system, while using all of the Trust Fund money for current government spending.
Last edited by westexas on Fri 19 Jul 2013, 08:57:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Lore » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 08:30:41

For all it's faults, I think there is a good argument to be made that Detroit and the surrounding area built what was formerly known as the middle class in America. Certainly, they did a better job of it then the people in Bentonville, AR are doing now.

If Detroit presently represents a microcosm of what's wrong with capitalism and never ending consumptive growth, then maybe it's time to reevaluate our priorities and what really makes us better humans. What better petri dish exists then the donut hole of greater metropolitan Detroit to start a new American experiment?
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby C8 » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 10:22:49

At least folks in Detroit can look forward to the Lions winning the Super Bowl.
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Re: Detroit Files For Chapter 9 Bankruptcy

Postby Tanada » Fri 19 Jul 2013, 10:58:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', 'A')t least folks in Detroit can look forward to the Lions winning the Super Bowl.


I have only been waiting my whole life! I just wish my Dad could have lived long enough to see it but he passed away last September.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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