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Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 19:39:58

Here's a question, how much of our preference is due to our childhood conditioning?

I grew up very rural, hate cities. It's in my blood, my bones, my being. I can visit and appreciate, but living in one gets to me.

How about you?
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 20:08:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'H')ere's a question, how much of our preference is due to our childhood conditioning?

I grew up very rural, hate cities. It's in my blood, my bones, my being. I can visit and appreciate, but living in one gets to me.

How about you?


I grew up in the rural suburbs. Neighbors had chickens, geese and bees and pretty gigantic gardens. Further neighbors had horses and cornfields (since developed into more cul-de-sacs). We played in the woods, damning up streams and fishing for crabs in the bay with chicken necks and a net, went frog giggin', etc. After college lived on a horse farm for two years, even as I drove 20 miles into work. When I first moved up where I am and was renting a house, there was one strip mall that I could walk to with a great deli and a coffee shop. I practically lived there it was fun hanging out and got to know all the regulars. That experience I think gave me the idea to move to an area where we had been driving to when we went out at night (lots of restaurants and live music venues). I've been in the same general area ever since (about 20 years).

I've loved every place I ever lived even though they were very different. I do abhor the modern suburb with the cheap monotony and no where to go without getting in a car.

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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 21:56:37

I grew up on a rural farm in se New England. Hereford cattle chickens etc... Conditioning has little to do with it.

Small rural towns are cities of a different kind, I don't like living in a skyscraper, but three and four story downtowns are extremely comfortable. Especially when the countryside is accessible and nearby. Lifestyle is what you make of it, town can be banal, but so can country.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Ferretlover » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 22:06:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'I') think Sandy has helped debunk that. While NJ residents dealt with rationing & waited in 3-4 hour gas lines (often recieving no gas after stations ran out) and suffered electricity outages that still continue is some place Manhattan has been back up & running for days.

Gee, I don't know about that hypothysis, Narz. The NY /NJ areas had/have help coming in from other parts of the country that were not damaged. Would recovery be progressing at the same pace if there was no outside help available?
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Narz » Mon 12 Nov 2012, 23:57:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'M')aybe I'm just overly cynical from experience, but I lived urban, in a very walkable setting. No one walked. They would drive their cars to cross the street; 100yds at MOST. Walk ? no. Go downstairs, get out of the gate, around the complex, cross the street, park, in to store. Even when it indisputably would take longer to drive than walk, they still drove.

The city planners just have to make it a huge pain in the ass to drive in the cities. High cost for parking, tolls to get in & out, whatever necessary.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 00:00:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I') grew up very rural, hate cities. It's in my blood, my bones, my being. I can visit and appreciate, but living in one gets to me.
How about you?


Hmmm... as an elementary aged kid, I lived in what I guess would be considered an old "first ring" suburb, but Houston is such a naturally spread out commercial city, that my parents jobs at that time where further out from Downtown than their home. We then moved quite a ways out to a massive, custom designed/built thing, but all I knew as a kid was that I was now in the middle of, and had free rein in, about 100 acres of forest with a lake and creek. Hunted and fished almost daily for years till I went to college. My grandparents were set up differently though, they had a small wood frame house in NE Texas, in town, (~1000sf) and drove out to a several acre "garden" on which they grew enough food to feed a small army of relatives. I liked my grandparents setup the best, so I chose a small house in a modest East Texas town to raise my family, and from whence to send my kid off to college in a few years.

I don't dislike city, or even what I guess would be considered by some here, "country estate", but this is what I like best, a town that I can walk across if need be, and regularly cycle all over, and out into its periphery, and even to the next town over if I feel like on an afternoon. A home that makes minimal demands on my time; a home that serves me, not a home that I must serve. (not a bedroom community though, there is real industry here, and real production, noise included, so nimby's and hippy's need not apply)
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Narz » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 00:54:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'H')ere's a question, how much of our preference is due to our childhood conditioning?

I grew up very rural, hate cities. It's in my blood, my bones, my being. I can visit and appreciate, but living in one gets to me.

How about you?

Both. I was born in Manhattan but spent summers on Shelter Island which is semi-rural. Until I was five then fam moved to the burbs North of NYC. I think they're the worst of both worlds.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 07:57:16

Lived in small towns most of my life but near to open moorland. Most ever walking I do is when I'm staying in cities. Even when travelling by train tube or bus, I walk more than in 'country' areas. London's got a fairly extensive public transport system, but the bus/tube/train stop's were still further than shops/town centre back home(s).

I've found I walk for necessity in cities and pleasure in more rural areas.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 08:38:16

Image

I dont know if any of you are familiar with this little book, but its right on int he perspective of this thread.

I will try to post some relevant excerpts today (its very small and mostly images with captions. no long winded text)

If any wants the full text PM me
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 08:48:25

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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 08:49:06

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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 08:49:40

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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 08:50:07

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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 09:30:44

So far sounds like most of us have rural roots, no one born and raised in Brooklyn or LA.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 09:35:34

anador, yall might not think much of Texas for our politics/conservative beliefs, but I challenge you to do a Google Maps flyover of typical Texan small cities; not Houston/DFW/Austin/SanAntonio; but say, Carthage, TX.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=3 ... a&t=h&z=13

Your books' design, in living form.

Now, modern economics I think messes with crop and livestock variety; but as a basic example... there ya go.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 09:49:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'a')nador, yall might not think much of Texas for our politics/conservative beliefs, but I challenge you to do a Google Maps flyover of typical Texan small cities; not Houston/DFW/Austin/SanAntonio; but say, Carthage, TX.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=3 ... a&t=h&z=13

Your books' design, in living form.

Now, modern economics I think messes with crop and livestock variety; but as a basic example... there ya go.


Indeed, the book is based on real existing systems and patterns. They arent new, and no-one came up with them, we primarily researched mormon colonial settlement in the west, and how their towns subsisted without resupply or extended support. The pattern was a common one as the west expanded.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby anador » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 16:25:48

Image

Another interesting plate showing a public cannery, food processing cooperative, built at the center of an Agrarian development. This makes it easier for pre-collapse commuter families to get into canning and preserving.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 19:02:35

Just for clarity, when I think of a city or urban area I think of places of a million or more.

When I think of a smaller urban area, say Halifax with 250,000, I call it a small city or big town.

When I think of rural areas I imagine being able to walk out the back door with a gun and go hunting.

I don't know what others think of when using these terms. Maybe that kinda puts me in some kind of extreme position compared to other folks.
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 19:42:40

Here is how I explain the difference between a small city and big city.

In Halifax I order coffee at Tim's, they call me "Love", and they speak some different language that I still manage to understand. When I cross the street cars stop and wave me on.
:-D

In Philly I go to Starbucks where things sound like English, but they don't understand "regular coffee" and they call me "78." When I cross the street they swerve at me, blare the horn, scream in unintelligible dialects and use universally known hand gestures.

:badgrin:
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Re: Cities > Suburbs for PeakOil

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 13 Nov 2012, 20:49:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'J')ust for clarity, when I think of a city or urban area I think of places of a million or more.

When I think of a smaller urban area, say Halifax with 250,000, I call it a small city or big town.

When I think of rural areas I imagine being able to walk out the back door with a gun and go hunting.

I don't know what others think of when using these terms. Maybe that kinda puts me in some kind of extreme position compared to other folks.


Wow, this is why we need to share definitions. I consider anything over 100K a pretty big city. There are less than 10 cities in the US with over a million.
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