[Cloud9]

The plan was to get the population away from the nukes. We built roads rather than bunkers.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', 'T')he plan was to get the population away from the nukes. We built roads rather than bunkers.

[Newfie]

I get a little frustrated with this argument, as I have said before there is not enough definition to be meaningful. Nor do we know how things will go down. Either stance could be right, depending upon circumstances.

I live in a big city core, gentrified district. Lots of security, nice streets, no pot holes, as good as it gets.

The neighborhood, within a few blocks,has a lot of high rise co-ps, or coops. I call them "cliff dwellers."

I agree that the current daily energy usage for we folks is pretty small compared to the suburbs. We walk to work, and to the market, and our Daughter walked to school. We park our car behind the house and rent out floors 2 &3, and the Wife has put her office in the front rooms. We are now down to living in two rooms, not including a kitchen. So our foot print is pretty small.

All our windows are barred, Wife has been robbed twice on the street, Daughter once. Wife grew potatoes (7) in a container on the front stoop. She felt real proud of herself.

A few blocks South of us though the neighborhood deteriorates, fast. Lots of crime and murder. Lots of folks who have not much further to fall, who are in walking distance.

IF we have a nice lawful power down, then this is a great place to be.

IF we have a disorderly power down, where social services are cut to the poor, where the gird or water or sewer or gas or police protection starts to fail, then we have a serious problem.

Even a few days loss of critical services will make the condo's unlivable. Most folks can not negotiate 10 stories of stairs once a day. No alternative access to water outside the tap. Where will they go for shelter? We would be very hard pressed to take in even two.

The poor neighborhoods don't even have any real stores, like food stores. That is a real problem even now. If food distribution takes a hit, they are without. Where would they go for food or water? We can't feed even two.

We have a diesel generator, and a home oil fuel tank for forced air heat, so we can survive a power outage of a few days. We have some largish water storage bladders so we would have water. So on a physical level we are in pretty good shape.

But at the same time I see that no one around me has such resilience. The store around the corner has already used our genny to power their freezer. We could not show an electric light. I might well be very dangerous set foot outside, knowing there are hungry, cold, thirsty folks, with kids they love, who are desperate for help. How do you push them out of the life boat? How do you take them in? Why would you even want to be in that position?

So for me it comes down to a matter of faith.

Do you have faith in your local government to keep the status quo and protect you, even at the expense of others less fortunate?

Do you trust government to make reasonable decision about emergency shelter and supplies?

Will government be prudent and not allow us to go off some financial cliff so that the poor and disenfranchised are maintained with the minimum daily requirements and do not resort to riots and looting?

No matter what you think you think, you will likely not really know how you will act until you are faced with the situation, up close and personal. Then you will do what you do based upon your own motivations, which may well surprise you.

For all these reasons above I highly value flexibility. Generator and water to survive in place. 4WD to get to boat, if need to. Back up plan is to use an inflatable raft. Boat as a secure haven, or transport to an alternative location. Cabin in Canada. Ability to go further if needed.

But, what will I do when faced with the situation? Don't know. Will have to negotiate with Wife and kids at that time.

[kublikhan]

Trying to pretend population loss does not effect a city is disingenuous. With population loss, the tax base erodes. But the city must still pay to have the streets maintained. The lights lit. The sewers maintained. Police & Fire. Etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The Bottom Line
One of the problems with the decline in city populations isn't just that there aren't enough people, it's that property values begin to fall and tax revenues drop when people move away. Cities are left with underfunded police and fire departments and public services suffer from the lack of resources. Abandoned neighborhoods contribute to more crime and drive down housing values.

[dinopello]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'J')uliani is a self-serving prick. He "cleaned up" the Times Square area for Disney Corp. Times Square was/(will be again) a magnet for whores and pushers because of its proximitry to all of the major New York City transport hubs, that (not coincidently) serve the white-flight suburban male demographic.

[Lore]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'J')uliani is a self-serving prick. He "cleaned up" the Times Square area for Disney Corp. Times Square was/(will be again) a magnet for whores and pushers because of its proximitry to all of the major New York City transport hubs, that (not coincidently) serve the white-flight suburban male demographic.

[Newfie]

Here is some food for thought:

http://www.ted.com/talks/geoffrey_west_ ... tions.html
Every thing is fine, we just have to keep innovating faster and faster and faster.

http://www.ted.com/talks/carolyn_steel_ ... ities.html
Every thing is not fine.

[autonomous]

Cities are the best place to be if you are homeless, hopelessly poor or filthy rich. Suburbs were built primarily for the middle class with the premise that infinite sources of cheap fuel are available.

Living in a rural environment is by far the best way to go once you have established the necessary infrastructure and skills. But I like cities since they provide a place for people to live who are hopelessly dependent on the system, regardless of whether or not they are rich or poor. In a rural environment, there's a real sense of freedom and independence. In rural environments, you can learn to live in harmony with nature in a self-sustaining way.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('autonomous', 'C')ities are the best place to be if you are homeless, hopelessly poor or filthy rich. Suburbs were built primarily for the middle class with the premise that infinite sources of cheap fuel are available.

Living in a rural environment is by far the best way to go once you have established the necessary infrastructure and skills. But I like cities since they provide a place for people to live who are hopelessly dependent on the system, regardless of whether or not they are rich or poor. In a rural environment, there's a real sense of freedom and independence. In rural environments, you can learn to live in harmony with nature in a self-sustaining way.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')re you sure the average American city population is declining, or is it just worst cases, like Camden or Detroit? I'd be willing to bet NYC has increased, with the addition of giant condo/coop/apts during the boom. And going forward folks tend to migrate to the city when times gets tough, so even if there was/is a late-20th/early-21st population decline, I expect that to be countered as the burbs empty out due to their energy-dependency, lack of services. The sewers, traffic lights, subways, and the peace will not be fixed from here on out. Peak oil, resource depletion is bigger than that. I am a depressed, fatalistic cynic. And you?

[Pops]

Urban/destitute is better than rural/destitute I think.

But one step up in net worth, say the price of a good used car, gets you space to drill a well, grow food, build a shelter. Most of you IT/engineer guys on here could put an Ozarks plateau acre of land and small house on your MasterCard and pay it off in a year.

There are probably a million little houses in what's left of small town America that are perfectly walkable, well served with fire and police, maybe better than the future city will be, just sitting idle. My little town had a boom in fixers back in the oughties because we're smack between Joplin and Springfield, 30-40 miles in either direction. Now they're just sitting there.

But like someone upthread said, most of these discussions are about justifying where we're already dug in.

[Tanada]

Back in 2008 a lot of us on here were predicting the return to urbanities for the bulk of the people who work there due to the effects of peak oil and high fuel prices.

The biggest problem with being an Urbanite is the high cost of rent, the real shift will come when commuting fuel costs exceed inner city rent costs, especially when you factor in the hour driving into the city and the hour driving home. If you value family time you want to live next to where you work.

[ennui2]

"If you value family time you want to live next to where you work."

And you should live where your family is located. If your family won't collectively move, you're not gonna bug out into the wilderness alone like the unabomber. You're going to adapt-in-place as best you can, for better or worse. These are not unilateral decisions most people can make. They require buy-in. Having land that never gets used is of little value besides being a way to park money in an asset that might be less immune from depreciation, and in some places (like VT) there are penalties for buying land and not doing anything with it.

[Newfie]

For many, many years I either lived in the burbs and commuted to the city, or lived in the city and commuted to the burbs. Then a few years ago I started working within walking distance. At first I was thrilled, no commute, more disposable income, life is good.

But I quickly found myself making excuses to go out to the burb office. When I could not for a couple of weeks the depression would really set in. I NEED to be able to see some trees and sky and stuff.

One of the big advantages of having the boat is that I get to get out of the city for the weekend. Like a cabin. It makes a big difference to my mood.

But, getting out is gonna be tough for the next few weekends. Bunches of obligations. Ug.

[lowem]

This is Singapore, where I live.
Apartment blocks as far as the eye can see.

The photo was from an automated light rail train carriage (LRT).
The town is Punggol, next to Sengkang where I am.



We have reached over 7,000 people per square km, a population density for the entire country/city-state that has exceeded even that of Tokyo. The future of Blade Runner, cyberpunk, dystopia etc. is actually here