[PrestonSturges]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'H')ere's something I don't get about libertarian rugged individuals. If they are so rugged, why do they care what the government does.

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('prajeshbhat', 'H')ere's something I don't get about libertarian rugged individuals. If they are so rugged, why do they care what the government does.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')Philosophically they do have some interesting points and it gets complicated, but in practice you're right Preston these ideas aren't applicable to a 21st century developed nation. Liberterianism is just unnecessarily cruel, it's not necessary in the world's richest nation, and it can't even work because of globalism (the rich just invest their money offshore).

[prajeshbhat]

I do believe that most of the social progress and environmental improvements in the west has happened due to the efforts of the progressives and liberals. You gotta give them credit for that. Of course now that the american system is collapsing(and the Democrats are in power) , the conservatives are having their hay-day. Now is the time to blame the failure of the system on liberals (and feminists, gays, minorities and what not), it may be the only chance they will get. Every thing these people have fought for to make your society a more decent place to live in can now be derided and blamed to be responsible for the current situation. Lets just go back to the way things were in the 19th century.
It shouldn't be any surprise either. When communism collapsed in 1990, there were a lot of cry-babies who were running around in Russia saying that the system collapsed because we did not have PURE communism, that there were a lot of rich billionaire businessmen running things in Kremlin. Now, I see the same kind of jokers are running around in USA saying they don't have PURE CAPITALISM, that there are a lot of billionaire businessmen running things in Washington.

[PrestonSturges]

Libertarians have been pitching that idea about the collapse of society and currency for 80 years also. Nothing has changed.

If the world ends, OK they can have a shot. In the mean time what we are seeing is that putting them in charge of anything is like putting an arsonist in charge of a match factory - there is just to much temptation for them to burn it all down.

[Pops]

I heard a talking head mention that districts are so well jiggered only about 90 seats of the houses 435 are even competitive between parties, makes the polarization make sense:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') crisis of governance -- born of decades of gerrymandering, polarization and exploding deficits -- could persist in the short term and may last for a decade, said James Thurber of American University's Center for Congressional and Presidential Studies.

"We're in deep trouble. We are going to have continued gridlock. It's an era of deadlocked government during a period when the economy is not doing well and we are not doing well internationally," Thurber said.

[AgentR11]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'S')o isn't the only solution to gerrymandered gridlock de-gerrymandering?
Wouldn't that force politicians to be more responsive to all the people instead of just the 20% radical base?

[prajeshbhat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ouldn't that force politicians to be more responsive to all the people instead of just the 20% radical base?

[Pops]

Yeah, I've wondered about this before, how could it be more fair and balanced? Whoever has the power now (census year +1) gets to do the gerry-rigging. That's good for the pubs this time around but not really my point.

I've always thought it should have something to do with existing government entities -counties, cities, etc simply for consistency but that's pretty simplistic.

Since reps are selected by population maybe population density could be a factor, higher density areas have different concerns than low... Country dems like guns and city dems don't maybe.


Divided gov is a good thing, but right now we've got it rigged to serve the parties instead of the people. The topic at hand is of course a perfect example - the majority of the citizens want a deal:

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Divided gov is a good thing, but right now we've got it rigged to serve the parties instead of the people. The topic at hand is of course a perfect example - the majority of the citizens want a deal:

[gollum]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')Divided gov is a good thing, but right now we've got it rigged to serve the parties instead of the people. The topic at hand is of course a perfect example - the majority of the citizens want a deal:

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '<')/div>
Hence within few years at most there will be a final crash by default.
Nature will not ask American public what they like and what they don't...

Final years to complete your preps...

[Pops]

Just noticed they are holding a "test vote" at 1: EST and say they are optimistic.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... af2908c26e

[Pops]

details
http://money.msn.com/business-news/arti ... d=14026342

[Pops]

In case you were wondering:
AreWeBrokeYet.com

And

http://www.winkandwink.com/american-fam ... fographic/

H/T:
http://www.financialarmageddon.com/2011 ... ageddon%29

[AgentR11]

That whole image chart is explained by the collapse in the housing market. In places where there was no significant bubble on prices, the picture is lightly colored; in locations where values spiked, its dark blue.

Bob buys 200k house, on a 180k, 30yr mortgage.
A couple years alter, after paying in a little, the house is valued at 300k with no physical improvements.
Bob takes 50k in home equity, buys a new kitchen counter, and goes on vacation..
A while passes...
Bob's house value collapses to 175k, his mortgage is 160k, his heloc is is 45k, and poof... underwater.

This has happened extensively in every one of those dark colored states.

And yes, tuition has gotten much pricier as families are directly paying a higher percentage of the cost, as states pull funding. The only problem I see with this, is that we're still selling the underclass on the notion that a college degree is a ticket out of poverty, instead of a ticket into enslavement if they lack the contacts, exceptional skills, and/or personal wealth to back it up.

[Plantagenet]

The tea party demanded:
--Spending cuts bigger than any debt rise
--two part process with more cuts later
--triggers to result in cuts to entitlements
--no new taxes.
--vote on a constitutional amendment to balance the budget

Looks like Obama and the dems caved in first again and the tea party won, because thats more or less whats in the debt ceiling bill

It was clear weeks ago that Obama would cave in and lose. When he blustered "don't call my bluff" it was a clear sign Obama was bluffing and would cave.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'T')he tea party demanded:
--Spending cuts bigger than any debt rise
--two part process with more cuts later
--triggers to result in cuts to entitlements
--no new taxes.
--vote on a constitutional amendment to balance the budget

Looks like Obama and the dems caved in first again and the tea party won, because thats more or less whats in the debt ceiling bill

[Cog]

Cuts promised over a 10 year period are pure fantasy. If this is the plan I'm thinking of there is only $8 billion in cuts for fiscal year 2012!!! A serious budget plan would have at least $200 billion in cuts the first year instead of back-loading them 10 years from now. The whole thing is a bad joke on the American people.

Two years from now we will have added another $2.5 trillion in debt to the pile of debt we already have and we will be the worse for it.

[Daniel_Plainview]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'C')uts promised over a 10 year period are pure fantasy. If this is the plan I'm thinking of there is only $8 billion in cuts for fiscal year 2012!!! A serious budget plan would have at least $200 billion in cuts the first year instead of back-loading them 10 years from now. The whole thing is a bad joke on the American people.

Two years from now we will have added another $2.5 trillion in debt to the pile of debt we already have and we will be the worse for it.