[rockdoc123]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'o') you admit there has been significant progress in sound, graphics, etc. But unless you encounter an AI that can out-think you, you decree that no significant progress is being made? That is a weak position to take. The human mind took millions of years to create. We may never be able to out-do the job nature has done. But even if we do, you insist it must be done in your lifetime when nature herself took millions of years?

[Newfie]

Dad was a guide for duck hunting parties, the ducks would blacken the sky. The ducks are nearly gone.
Dad worked in the bay and made a living. The bay is now dead with pollution.
I used to hunt out of our back yard. There is no more hunting for miles around.
My grand father caught cod for a living, cod that was the main protein source for Western Europe. The cod fishing moratorium is 14 years old and the cod biomass is under 5% of historical records.

Chart your own destiny.

Personally we have no TV and no AC. We walk to work. We have a bug out boat. I am happier now.

I am an engineer and work in technology. After 40 years I see a marked reduction in the quality of my life style and in the meaning of life. I have come to the conclusion that, while technology has benefits, they are greatly over rated.

Read "1984."

Cheers

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')
If you like this site, x, and you want to be comfortable and accepted by everyone, then you'll probably have to espouse some doomerism yourself. Personally, I never have been able to stand groupthink, which is what this really is here at PeakOil.com. The doomers are totally intolerant of any outspoken person who disagrees with their group line.

And I admit, constitutionally, I don't care to follow any group. I like to think for myself. And when I am learning about a complex subject, I like the devil's advocate role because arguing a position uncovers weaknesses as well as strengths. It's amusing for me.

So, unless you're willing to be something of a pariah, you probably shouldn't follow my lead.

To tell you the truth, no one here really gives me much of a fight. The doomers mostly sound like a bunch of middle school kids throwing food and insults around in the cafeteria. Every once in a long while, someone argues a point which gives me pause. But that doesn't happen very often with this collection of twits.

I wish there were more people who argued cogently and forcefully in a more collegiate debating mode. That would be a whole lot more fun.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'B')oys and girls I'm going to lock this thread and start with the formal warnings if you don't behave and that is a big waste of my time - be civil or go somewhere else.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'O')ne more time,

At what price point will increasing energy cost limit R&D?

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'T')he level of education of present day humans is higher than during past eras of humans. And even uneducated humans can contribute to human technological progress.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'T')he level of education of present day humans is higher than during past eras of humans. And even uneducated humans can contribute to human technological progress.

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'T')he level of education of present day humans is higher than during past eras of humans. And even uneducated humans can contribute to human technological progress.

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'F')ormal education has little to do with intelligence, if any at all.

[diemos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'B')ut about that lunar power?

[BigTex]

This is a great discussion.

I see humans as sort of like the dinosaurs--totally in control of a world seemingly configured just for them.

When the dinosaurs ran out of cheap abundant plant life to eat they all died. I imagine that when carbon-based energy concentrations become more diluted at some point in the future, life will get harder for humans as well.

But a process like that can unfold achingly slowly for the impatient doomer and clever creatures like humans have consistently come up with all sorts of gadgets to slow the process down even more.

Life on this earth has gone through countless cycles of experimentation, standardization, evolution, extinction, re-birth, etc. We are its latest top-of-the-food-chain iteration, but it's hard to argue with a straight face that we are the final and ultimate expression of intelligent life, optimally adapted to its environment in perpetuity.

IMHO, people in general, and doomers in particular, should find more about the present and life in general in which to find meaning and enjoyment, even if we are standing on the edge of a cliff as a species, culture, nation, etc. We cannot change our nature by lamenting its shortcomings (my opinion, of course).

Imagine the pointlessness of a Cassandra dinosaur millions of years ago--"Hey guys, we're all going to be extinct in 10,000 years, let's try to delay it another 1,000 years by stocking up on plant MREs and implementing a 'one-dinosaur policy'." That would have been a silly thing to do.

[kublikhan]

Thank you diemos, I was indeed referring to tidal power there when I said lunar. 1 out of 5 pstarr? I think not. Solar, fission, and fusion alone all have the potential to generate energy in excess of the amount we extract from fossil fuels. As for tidal and geothermal, I did mention mixing energy sources together did I not? Even with fossil fuels we don't extract all of our energy from a single fossil fuel. I think it is really disingenuous when doomers cry foul over a clean, renewable energy source just because it can't meet 100% of our energy needs.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'T')here;s no live changing difference between a B&W TV and a plasma.
Same is true for all your other examples

[sparky]

.
Hello big tex glad to see you around
The main doomer fallacy is to equate the modern consumer society with " the world "
it's not .......by a long shot ,
the suburban malls are the dinosaurs ,like the downtown high rise office towers
the poorest groups will hardly feel a change , just a bout of extreme misery ,
that's business as usual , the poors die in bad times but their world go on
for the few subsistence clod scratching farmers , no change at all , maybe a bit of aggro
but this will pass too .
anyone who get it's fat content from some centralized organization , this will get very sticky indeed
especially in the mega cities .
The main doomer fallacy is to think it will happen as a crash , in a matter of a few months
I see it as an uneven process lasting generations and totally unstoppable
it's probably for the best anyway .

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '
')This is exactly the kind of innovation and know-how we are going to need when if are moving into an energy poor future.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '
')And you're also right with your chess game. It got better. But only because it's not so much an AI problem but a mathematical game. Try games that have an order of magnitude more freedom. It don't look pretty.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'F')orget your singularity. Kiss the singularity good bye.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', '
')And you're also right with your chess game. It got better. But only because it's not so much an AI problem but a mathematical game. Try games that have an order of magnitude more freedom. It don't look pretty.

[dsula]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '[')Disagree. We are not going to dismantle humanity's wealth of knowledge just because the gas pumps run dry. Nor are we going to turn our backs on higher education. Not even if there is a collapse in our future. Even during the dark ages, technological progress continued.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dsula', 'A')lright then. There's nothing I can say anymore as we fundamentally disagree. You believe science/innovation is free and piles up for anybody to use. I believe science/innovation costs energy, effort and money, even for maintaining it. A man who has to work for food don't have time to invent. That's my take.
Over and out.