[gnm]

Ludi, ok ok guilty as charged with the strawman. I was justf pointing out that holmes argument was not pointless. Most of the problems created lately are being done so with our money. Are you paying 0 _additional_ taxes or just plain 0 taxes which would mean you are working below the radar/and or poverty line and not feeding the machine anymore. If so well done!

I am pro-nuclear but also a realist. I don't see any way we can sustain the current paradigm nuclear/hydrogen/coal gas or not. I just hope nuclear can help ease the transistion. But the mantra of endless growth will have to end.

-G

[Ancien_Opus]

I will offer this example from history. Leadville, Colorado population 2,821 was once the home to some +100,000 residents during the 1880's. A prosperous city that opened an Opera house and had numerous merchants.

So what happened? The silver crash of 1893.

What can we learn.

Monte has asked why people won't change when all logic dictates change is required. Looking at the Leadville example, many of the great silver barons from Leadville should have recognized the circumstance and started to husband their resources. Since they where millionaires they could've lived comfortably for many more years. What actually happened was that most went on spending as before, as they had become accustomed to, until the money simply ran out. A few managed to switch to mining gold but most simply let the world collapse around them.

Change is tough even when the choice is obvious.

Piper Alpha gas & oil platform burned in the North Sea in 1988. Only a few soles brave enough to plunge into the North Sea some 60 feet below the platform survived. Some of these individuals survived where most of the crew died in the fire. Sixty-two survivors out of a crew of 229.

Our culture may be smart enough to see it coming, wise enough to know what the correct action is but still too foolish to make the right choices.

[grabby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ') We'll have plenty of time to deal with all that soon enough. .

[grabby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Someone', '
')
No doubt there will countless millions who will not have prepared in any way and will have lost everything. In that scenario 'ownership' would pretty much mean sod all to them and if you have something they need I can see some pretty ugly scenes happening.

[Ibon]

The time to come up with solutions isn't there....but only if your expecting that the solution means we keep our lifestyle and consumptiion habits intact. Nero's post above addressed this. Obviously there is no time to adapt with alternatives, even a suite of alternatives including nuclear at the current rate of consumption. But why do we always debate this assuming that if we cant solve the problem this inevitably leads to some downward spiral where we have to build lifeboats and alternative communities as the world crumbles in order to survive? I propose that the lemmings will run out of steam heading toward the cliff when the energy that drives their consumption depletes. The mindless sheeples will suddenly become mindful only once the energy is no longer there. Not before. Only then will you see a mainstream cultural evolutionary phenomenom where people will live in what we invision today as "alternative communities". There is a huge resiliency that we completely underestimate in how humans will adapt when no other alternatives are available. In my frequent travels to developing countries I constantly marvel at how functioning communities exist consuming a fraction of the energy we use here in North America. We have a sense of entitlement here in North America that we somehow deserve an abundant normal lifespan. Most people in developing countries have a deep humble sense of appreciation day to day and no sense of entitlement.

Energy today is still cheap and abundant, uncherished and wasted. Afflluent countries will adjust long before they will collapse. Energy alternatives, including probably nuclear, in tandem with huge cultural adaptation will be the social evolutionary force. The only main thing I see collapsing is our over consumption. Good riddance to that! It can only lead to more community and more socially cohesive living arrangements and a greater appreciation for simpler things in life. Somebody once posted that the nightmare is not in the future but what we are living today. I tend to agree. Personally I welcome the current peak oil crisis, not because I have some sadistic pleasure about human suffering but rather because the vast majority of affluent humans today are already suffering living as undignified, socially isolated parasites. When I am travelling in rural Nepal, Mexico or Thailand I see human contentment, dignity and appreciation at a level that you wont see in the faces of lonely suburbanites driving alone in their cars to and from work.

Here is a little self reflection perhaps for some of you that are planning your life boats, hoarding supplies and food etc. You don't need to panic, hoard or build lifeboats. The alternative you invision will go mainstream anyway. Is part of your motivation to build a lifeboat today some sense of self entitlement to survive? Is your lifeboat vision representing a new paradigm of thought or is it perhaps symptomatic of the individualistic, isolationism that is the very hallmark of our over consumptive culture? In developing countries most people who have almost nothing are the first to invite you in their homes and share with generosity the little they have.
Compassion toward the sheeple who know not what they are doing might cultivate some good skills for the future. The real juice is going to be out there with the people helping them adapt rather than hiding yourselves up in them there hills.......

[holmes]

as history has shown the cities will be pillaged, the suburbs burnt to the ground and then the countryside cleared. they are finding hidden booty of roman lords who hid there jewels but were killed and there lands pillaged. LOL. the answer today is to build lots of nuclear reactors. I actually think we are already reaching ecological limits now. we aint no different and actually are worse off and overshoot. the flowery lovey dovey shit will no happen ever. and if u do live like that youll be robbed and culled.

[InnerSuburbia]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('savethehumans', 'Y')es, we are beyond the point of no return.

.
Each of us has that choice. I know which one I've made, cynical skeptic or not. Hope you all can live with your own choices--you're gonna have to!

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')he Hirsch Report details that we need a 10-20 year crash mitigation plan in place before the peak.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'L')et's talk about the time required to implement any solution, even fusion.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')here is a huge resiliency that we completely underestimate in how humans will adapt when no other alternatives are available.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nero', ' ')I recognize that while it takes a very long time to construct infrastructure it takes very little time indeed to implement conservation.

[Ludi]

It would mean a GLOBAL CONSENSUS on conservation. When have we ever had a global consensus on anything? How long do you think it would take to convince EVERYONE to conserve? A heck of a long time; it would mean changing the goals and ideals of our culture itself.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', ' ')In my frequent travels to developing countries I constantly marvel at how functioning communities exist consuming a fraction of the energy we use here in North America. We have a sense of entitlement here in North America that we somehow deserve an abundant normal lifespan. Most people in developing countries have a deep humble sense of appreciation day to day and no sense of entitlement. Energy today is still cheap and abundant, uncherished and wasted.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TonyPrep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'L')et's talk about the time required to implement any solution, even fusion.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')t would mean a GLOBAL CONSENSUS on conservation. When have we ever had a global consensus on anything? How long do you think it would take to convince EVERYONE to conserve? A heck of a long time; it would mean changing the goals and ideals of our culture itself.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')he only crash plan I see in place at the moment is one to escalate the debt beyond the comprehension of man.

[DantesPeak]

As Monte Quest noted above, the actual loss of oil supplies in the 70s wasn't that severe - yet oil prices rose extremely fast and economic activity dropped sharply. Yes, the coorelation between energy use and the economy is direct and very strong. No doubt efforts to conserve can and will be made so that the energy used per unit of economic activity will diminsh - but only slowly.

A 50% drop in energy supplies in 9 years, barring the invention of some type of new energy conversion device, would reduce total economic activity by 30 to 40%. This could be worse than the depression of the 30s.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')he only crash plan I see in place at the moment is one to escalate the debt beyond the comprehension of man.

[kochevnik]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'L')et's talk about the time required to implement any solution, even fusion.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'H')ow much time would it take to get a $3 gas tax through Congress, much less out of committee?