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Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 00:08:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'M')uch of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus.



I would like to see one tiny, shread of proof of your assertion, from any scientific, professional, or technical service or journal, that supports this conclusion.


Harrumph!!! This has been the major theme of this forum, hasn't it--that you can't trust the numbers? We pretty much have to rely on intuition here, because it's all pretty opaque. It makes intuitive sense that they'll run out one day, so that's what I go on, as I'm sure nearly everyone on this forum does.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby Zentric » Mon 28 May 2007, 00:30:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'M')uch of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus.


I would like to see one tiny, shread of proof of your assertion, from any scientific, professional, or technical service or journal, that supports this conclusion.


For your answer, please see my reply to poster 'aflurry' near the top of page 1 of this thread. Here is an excerpt:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', '
')Seems to me like part of the answer is that they have NOT all been facing falling rates all at the same time. As noted, individual fields have fallen and petered out all throughout the oil age.

However, another explanation could be the market acting on geology. As an individual field enters a production decline, it becomes more expensive to produce, and so the companies focus their efforts on younger, more profitable fields. Inevitably those fields age as well and the oil in them becomes more expensive. before you know it, that old field they abandoned has become competitive again, so they renew efforts on the old field with added market incentives and perhaps improved technology. and then the whole cycle repeats itself.

At some point they find that no younger fields are available and all existing fields are producing at full and diminishing capacity.

And as i understand it, that's Peak Oil.

So, if all these fields are reaching peak at the same time, it is no accident of Geology. It is the result of a coordinated extraction process. AKA "market efficiency."


...
Upon reflection I think you're right. Your term, "coordinated extraction process," could also be referred to as a worldwide race for the "low hanging fruit." And this effect predictably causes nearly uniform depletion everywhere except, of course, unstable regions like Iraq or places presently too remote for people, drilling equipment, ships or pipelines. My idea of how some governments might be choosing to responsibly manage their production rates to the downside - by using false news or other methods - likely only merits the smallest consideration when stacked up against this larger effect.
...


You see, Dante, perhaps this is the difference between you and me - when I'm presented with information that challenges my existing world view, I consider modifying my view in response.

And what do you do when confronted with a premise that's antithetical to what you think you know, that is, besides bolting from the discussion, while claiming fatigue or exasperation? :roll:

Incidentally, Dante, you still owe me a response to the questions I asked you on page 5 of this thread. Is your response forthcoming?
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby DantesPeak » Mon 28 May 2007, 00:49:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'M')uch of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus.


I would like to see one tiny, shread of proof of your assertion, from any scientific, professional, or technical service or journal, that supports this conclusion.


For your answer, please see my reply to poster 'aflurry' near the top of page 1 of this thread. Here is an excerpt:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', '
')Seems to me like part of the answer is that they have NOT all been facing falling rates all at the same time. As noted, individual fields have fallen and petered out all throughout the oil age.

However, another explanation could be the market acting on geology. As an individual field enters a production decline, it becomes more expensive to produce, and so the companies focus their efforts on younger, more profitable fields. Inevitably those fields age as well and the oil in them becomes more expensive. before you know it, that old field they abandoned has become competitive again, so they renew efforts on the old field with added market incentives and perhaps improved technology. and then the whole cycle repeats itself.

At some point they find that no younger fields are available and all existing fields are producing at full and diminishing capacity.

And as i understand it, that's Peak Oil.

So, if all these fields are reaching peak at the same time, it is no accident of Geology. It is the result of a coordinated extraction process. AKA "market efficiency."


...
Upon reflection I think you're right. Your term, "coordinated extraction process," could also be referred to as a worldwide race for the "low hanging fruit." And this effect predictably causes nearly uniform depletion everywhere except, of course, unstable regions like Iraq or places presently too remote for people, drilling equipment, ships or pipelines. My idea of how some governments might be choosing to responsibly manage their production rates to the downside - by using false news or other methods - likely only merits the smallest consideration when stacked up against this larger effect.
...


You see, Dante, perhaps this is the difference between you and me - when I'm presented with information that challenges my existing world view, I consider modifying my view in response.

And what do you do when confronted with a premise that's antithetical to what you think you know, that is, besides bolting from the discussion, while claiming fatigue or exasperation? :roll:

Incidentally, Dante, you still owe me a response to the questions I asked you on page 5 of this thread. Is your response forthcoming?

I've answered every question before, and it appears that you are badgering me for some reason to answer the same questions again - as well as making needless personal attacks. Use the search feature or start reading the weekly oil inventory thread from 2006 if you want to know what happened to refineries last year.
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby Zentric » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:05:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I')'ve answered every question before, and it appears that you are badgering me for some reason to answer the same questions again - as well as making needless personal attacks. Use the search feature or start reading the weekly oil inventory thread from 2006 if you want to know what happened to refineries last year.


Different poster, similar evasions. As if you've made any convincing case on this thread (and likely other threads as well) how there is no possibility of collusion between the oil refiners.

As far as personal attacks, nothing gratuitous or inappropriate as far as I can see. You've clearly earned all labels I've ascribed to you. Do you have to go now or would you like to stick around and talk some more?
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby Rogozhin » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:06:56

It doesn't matter does it fellas?

We all know that the way this country lives isn't sustainable.

It's just a matter of time until the public feaks out about the cost of EVERYTHING.

They are a stupid mob.

I would hope that the we all find our own road (with help from others that understand) through this deep maze of shiit that we're about to live through.

Rogo
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:19:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Rogozhin', 'I')t doesn't matter does it fellas?

We all know that the way this country lives isn't sustainable.

It's just a matter of time until the public feaks out about the cost of EVERYTHING.

They are a stupid mob.

I would hope that the we all find our own road (with help from others that understand) through this deep maze of shiit that we're about to live through.

Rogo


Amen. Inflation is guaranteed and life is NEVER going to be the same and things we can't know for sure, at the present time, hopefully will become clear as glass in the future.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby Zentric » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:11:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'C')heckmate. uhh. match point. Indian deathlock?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wiki', 'T')ongan death grip

The wrestler darts his/her hand under an opponent's chin and grabs a hold of a pressure point above the throat, squeezing the nerve. This cuts off the air supply and the opponent fades out, yet this is not considered an air choke as it is not squeezing the windpipe. This hold is unique in that it can be used as a sleeper like submission or, should the "unconscious" opponent end up laying on his back, a pinfall.
is this discussion over?


Hello, pstarr, from one of your fellow crazies. :) I think maybe the above was addressed to me. And if that's the case, then this is addressed to you:

Many "oil experts" on this site apparently don't understand how sometimes governments and big business will climb into bed together, turn out the lights and smooch. Although this image is distasteful, it's often very real, and our peakoil.com "experts" who deny that this kind of thing could now be happening will therefore only lead themselves, and anyone who chooses to follow them, into oblivion.

Here's what I understand myself. I know what the Bush Administration and the oil companies are like. I know what Americans in particular and people in general are like too. I know about mass media and mass delusion. I know that monopolies and oligopolies are natural byproducts of human capitalistic affairs. I know that America has entered a period of decline and that the middle class is set to receive the brunt of this decline. I know that as this goes on, members of the present middle class will be led to believe in certain things that are not true. I know that believing in many of these same things will be to one's own detriment, yet might be calculated, by those making the rules, as necessary to keep society "stable."

It's seems that the increasingly moribund oil industry - along with the present government's assistance - will game this thing all the way down until money and ownership is concentrated into relatively few hands. The present problem with heavy crude and refining capacity, whether or not it we choose to deem it as "intentional" almost surely was predictable. Those in positions of knowledge and power have thus been able to place their bets and have been continually able to place their bets on the correct predicted or predictable outcomes. While their knowledge and plans are sharable amongst themselves, members of the public must instead settle for only an overly-simplistic or distorted view that really can't quite stand up to scrutiny in any case, and where much of said distortion is even heavily promulgated by this site's own "oil experts." The odds of our being allowed to see the big picture are thus against us. But should we deny ourselves from making the attempt - individually if not collectively? I just thought you should know this.

Post No. 717. It's palindromic. :o
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Postby Concerned » Mon 28 May 2007, 03:47:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I') am no economist but let me give one tiny example.

In the Teens my grandparents got oil on their place in Oklahoma, the financial equation went like this:

For a while they pumped money into their little field and oil came out.
Then no matter how much money they pumped in nothing came out.
Then they went broke.

That little field hasn’t produced another drop in 60 years, no matter what the price or how big the shortfall in supply -
because there isn't any oil left there.

Pretty simple.


Thats a darn good example.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby evilgenius » Mon 28 May 2007, 07:50:17

Hey, Monte, any chance of gas prices not coming down after this summer driving season? There is a lot of talk on places like CNBC about 'oil glut' or 'huge supplies in Oklahoma' but they never mention the breakdown of light/heavy crude.

What will it take to get deep water West Africa up and running? I know that several of the companies involved in the JDZ between Nigeria and Sao Tome and Principe are scheduled to go after it in 2008. I think that is the last best place to try for light sweet, but there isn't any proof that there will be much of it there. What there is to speak for WA is a direct shipping route to both the US and Europe.

Even if it does come on line it will follow normal supply curves. There would be a lot at first, then a lessening of production on a bpd measure. And that probably not until 2009. To provide the incentive to develop it prices will have to remain high. With Canterell on a rapid decline schedule, Venezuela in retrograde and the Saudis hiding their decline we could see a serious shortfall in 2008. 2009 things could get a little better, but not for long.

I see the world, having reached peak, bouncing off of the ultimate bpd level until about 2010. After that the governments will aggressively use all of the anti-terror laws they have recently passed against their own people. It won't matter who is in charge in which countries. Today's democracies aren't as participatory as they once were. Democratic government is meant to be an extension of the will of the people, not a separate entity that can act on its own. Sometimes ensuring that requires spilling out onto the streets. Govenment has to respect the demonstration and the people have to have some idea of what they are agitating for. Fat laziness works against this principle. Easy living destabilizes the equation upon which democracy must rely for its essential connection between populace and leadership. Not always nor across the board, but in the circumstance where it involves the underlying reasons for the ease, peak oil, the people seem left out. They know but they intentionally don't want to know. They are aware but they leave it to the experts and the leaders. The alternative is made even worse for their, the people's, lack of the ability to face it. Ultimately if the people can't face it neither can democratic government.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 13:31:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'H')ere are links to what TOD has to say about declining oil supplies:

And if you want to bet $1000 the oil supplies are not declining see link ending in 2330.

Happy reading :)


What makes you think that Zentric or I, for that matter are challenging the idea that supplies are declining? You've missed the gist of what we are saying, and your response adds to the general confusion.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 20:22:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'H')ey, Monte, any chance of gas prices not coming down after this summer driving season? There is a lot of talk on places like CNBC about 'oil glut' or 'huge supplies in Oklahoma' but they never mention the breakdown of light/heavy crude.


There is a good chance that gas prices will continue to rise this summer, especially if we have even the threat of a storm in the Gulf or a war in Iran.

When the increased refining capacity comes online, we may see a drop.

Gas prices may roller-coaster down in the fall, but I doubt they will go down very far. We are in a 2 steps up 1 step back scenario, I believe.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 20:25:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')What makes you think that Zentric or I, for that matter are challenging the idea that supplies are declining? .


Oh, most likely this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'M')uch of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby roccman » Mon 28 May 2007, 20:30:14

"Zentric wrote:
Much of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus. "

Trigger statement for me that you may not have read all those links I posted.

OR

Maybe I don't understand the "gist" of what you wrote.

So...I'll give you the benefit and ask you to clarify the statement above.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 20:48:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')What makes you think that Zentric or I, for that matter are challenging the idea that supplies are declining? .


Oh, most likely this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', 'M')uch of the reporting relating to the production declines at most of the world's major oil fields is probably bogus.


He didn't say all of the reporting and he also said probably. And it's those qualifications that are actually important, though I can understand why you'd get the impression you got. 8O

I actually think a lot of the "reporting" is bogus too. But some of it is probably genuine and actually....Monte, seeing as you and others on this forum have made such a good case for decline, for the last couple of years, I believe there IS a problem with the major oil fields. It was you dudes who convinced me, nobody else. Truly.

What I'm trying to say...sniff...is...Monte...It was you all along, you , you. I had faith in YOU! You big lug!
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby roccman » Mon 28 May 2007, 20:54:12

Lame
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 21:01:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('roccman', 'L')ame


Excuse me? Care to elaborate?
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 21:04:25

Oh, by the way...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Myth: High gasoline prices are caused by price gouging
In a rising gasoline price environment, oil companies tend to lose money at the petrol pump, because cost of supply is outstripping price of sales. In fact, spectacular profits for gasoline
marketing (the service station) are made in rapidly falling price environments.


Paul Sankey, lead oil analyst and Managing Director at Deutsche Bank before the US Senate on May 15, 2007.
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Re: Knowing the true reasons for oil production declines

Postby roccman » Mon 28 May 2007, 21:09:02

"Excuse me? Care to elaborate?"

Look bro...

You asked me a question AND said I was confusing the thread with my post.

I gave you the benefit ( on behalf of Zentric) to explain what Zentric wrote.

You came back with hairsplitting of words to justify Zentic's posts....that I thought was a lame reponse.

My post was relevant...I believe TOD is a center for excellence in oil discussions and I belive my posts only added to the fevor and complexity of this thread.

get over it.
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