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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:06:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'G')lobal Flood?

Please think about it.

Where would all that water come from that would cover all the land.


Huh? The earth is covered with water; 75%. If you smoothed the planet somewhat (for example the deep ocean trenches) there is easily enough water to cover the entire earth.

Where did the water come from pre-flood? The Genesis account specifies two sources:
- Subterranean springs
- Rain falling from the sky. An overhead canopy of water vapor would explain the temperate climate earth-wide before the flood.


Of course, and the toof fairy leaves a dollar under your pillow every time you lose a baby toof.

Thanks.

:roll:

Since you take this nonsense seriously, please explain how Noah managed to save distant animals like Polar Bears, kangaroos, and eagles.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:09:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'G')lobal Flood?

Please think about it.

Where would all that water come from that would cover all the land.


Huh? The earth is covered with water; 75%. If you smoothed the planet somewhat (for example the deep ocean trenches) there is easily enough water to cover the entire earth.

Where did the water come from pre-flood? The Genesis account specifies two sources:
- Subterranean springs
- Rain falling from the sky. An overhead canopy of water vapor would explain the temperate climate earth-wide before the flood.


Of course, and the toof fairy leaves a dollar under your pillow every time you lose a baby toof.

Thanks.

:roll:

Since you take this nonsense seriously, please explain how Noah managed to save distant animals like Polar Bears, kangaroos, and eagles.
he put them in the Ark two by two and built a floating zoo. Jebus, man, you're such a sourpuss.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Niagara » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:36:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '.')..please explain how Noah managed to save distant animals like Polar Bears, kangaroos, and eagles.

This attempt at discrediting the flood account is not new. And you're probably wondering how the ark could have held all those animals. Actually those are excellent questions.

There are perhaps over a million species of animals. But Noah's instructions were to preserve only representatives of every "kind" of land animal and flying creature.

Just 43 "kinds" of mammals, 74 "kinds" of birds, and 10 "kinds" of reptiles could produce the great variety of species of these creatures that are known today. The ark was huge. It's displacement was similar to the Titanic. It had about 40,000 m3 of usable space—ample for the passenger list.

Before the flood there were no polar bears. BEARS yes, but not POLAR BEARS. Mammoths have been found in Siberia with vegetation still in their mouths unchewed. They were flash frozen by the sudden, catastrophic global flood.

So before the flood the harsh arctic environment did not exist as we know it today. As the centuries passed after the flood animals migrated and adapted to their new homes. Polar bears inhabit the arctic today. (Look at the incredible variety of dogs we have today as another example of how species can vary.)
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:38:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'G')lobal Flood?

Please think about it.

Where would all that water come from that would cover all the land.


Huh? The earth is covered with water; 75%. If you smoothed the planet somewhat (for example the deep ocean trenches) there is easily enough water to cover the entire earth.

Where did the water come from pre-flood? The Genesis account specifies two sources:
- Subterranean springs
- Rain falling from the sky. An overhead canopy of water vapor would explain the temperate climate earth-wide before the flood.


I have some serious doubts about there being enough water in those trenches to submerge the Eurasian continent and the Himalaya.

I think a more credible explanation is that god had these gigantic water bombers piloted by angels flying round the clock to flood the earth and keep it flooded for those 40 days and nights.

Then once the flood was over, the angels were assigned the task of obliterating all geologcal evidence of the flood.

As they say, god works in mysterious ways.

:roll:
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:40:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', '
')
Just 43 "kinds" of mammals, 74 "kinds" of birds, and 10 "kinds" of reptiles could produce the great variety of species of these creatures that are known today. The ark was huge. It's displacement was similar to the Titanic. It had about 40,000 m3 of usable space—ample for the passenger list.

Before the flood there were no polar bears. BEARS yes, but not POLAR BEARS. Mammoths have been found in Siberia with vegetation still in their mouths unchewed. They were flash frozen by the sudden, catastrophic global flood.



So you believe in an accelerated evolution as well? Interesting.

Beware, belief in evolution is a mortal sin.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:47:40

The more I think about the biblical flood the more it sounds like the original Final Solution. In fact, I think this is where Hitler got the idea from.

Not happy with humanity? Why then just exterminate them all like cockroaches. Heck, don't even stop with just humans, kill the animals and insects too.

What a swell god the bible god is.

:roll:
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:49:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'B')eware, belief in evolution is a mortal sin.


Really? According to whom?

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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 19:53:19

This is why Xians fear thinking. They are always reminded not to think. If you ask them questions about their belief system, they tell you to stop thinking and just start believing.

The bible is the most insane story ever concocted.

As I have stated elsewhere on this forum, perhaps there is a god, but if there is it's not the sadistic murderous lunatic of the bible.

Indeed, I'd like to think that there is one.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby AWPrime » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 20:01:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', 'B')efore the flood there were no polar bears. BEARS yes, but not POLAR BEARS. Mammoths have been found in Siberia with vegetation still in their mouths unchewed. They were flash frozen by the sudden, catastrophic global flood.

Floods don't flash freeze anything, and the unchewed veg, don't need to be flash frozen to be preserved.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o before the flood the harsh arctic environment did not exist as we know it today. As the centuries passed after the flood animals migrated and adapted to their new homes. Polar bears inhabit the arctic today. (Look at the incredible variety of dogs we have today as another example of how species can vary.)

Except for the fact that we have core samples of the ice dating back over 700,000 years.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 20:08:04

I obviously don't believe in hell but do find the idea that an intelligent sentient being would create such a place repugnant. With that said, if hell were a real place, the only creature worthy of a place in it would be its creator.

Here's Bible Problem #564,342:

Some Xians don't believe in hell either. They claim that the aramaic word which was translated as "hell" really referred to a garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

Considering that Jews don't believe in hell either there's probably something to this.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 20:34:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'I') obviously don't believe in hell but do find the idea that an intelligent sentient being would create such a place repugnant. With that said, if hell were a real place, the only creature worthy of a place in it would be its creator.

Here's Bible Problem #564,342:

Some Xians don't believe in hell either. They claim that the aramaic word which was translated as "hell" really referred to a garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

Considering that Jews don't believe in hell either there's probably something to this.


Yes, the word is "Gehenna" which refers to the Valley of Hinnom where a burning dump was, and where human sacrifices had been made to the god Moloch. Jesus might have been saying people would throw their lives away on the burning dump if they didn't follow his teachings. The word is Greek.

Significantly, God never warned his people of the danger of Hell when he transmitted his Law through Moses and the other prophets. Neither did he warn them of Satan, who was, for the Jews, an agent of God and not the Fallen Angel of Christianity.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 20:46:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'I') obviously don't believe in hell but do find the idea that an intelligent sentient being would create such a place repugnant. With that said, if hell were a real place, the only creature worthy of a place in it would be its creator.

Here's Bible Problem #564,342:

Some Xians don't believe in hell either. They claim that the aramaic word which was translated as "hell" really referred to a garbage dump outside Jerusalem.

Considering that Jews don't believe in hell either there's probably something to this.


Yes, the word is "Gehenna" which refers to the Valley of Hinnom where a burning dump was, and where human sacrifices had been made to the god Moloch. Jesus might have been saying people would throw their lives away on the burning dump if they didn't follow his teachings. The word is Greek.

Significantly, God never warned his people of the danger of Hell when he transmitted his Law through Moses and the other prophets. Neither did he warn them of Satan, who was, for the Jews, an agent of God and not the Fallen Angel of Christianity.


Thanks. I didn't know this stuff. The more you dig into xianity, the more confused, contradictory, and preposterous it all seems.
Last edited by Lokutus on Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:04:34

I love studying the history of Christianity, Lokutus. :) You might enjoy the books of Elaine Pagels, considered to be one of the world's top experts on very early Christianity. I strongly recommend her to anyone interested in Christianity, as a believer or nonbeliever. I like her "The Origins of Satan," "Adam and Eve and the Serpent" and "Beyond Belief." Also "The Gnostic Gospels." She goes into the politics of the times and how some beliefs developed from the political situation and contentious factions supporting various beliefs. It's really facinating. I think it amazing that Christians are willing to accept what some bishops decided was "real" Christianity back in the 4th century CE, when they would almost certainly not accept what a bunch of bishops told them now. So much of what we now think of as Christianity hinged on these bishops back then, and what was politically important for them and the collapsing Roman Empire. Virtually all of what we know of as "western civilization" hinges on those momentous decisions. It's very much worth learnign about.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:13:22

Thanks, I discovered Pagels about a year ago after reading the Harpers article "Jesus Without the Magic".

There's a book by Crossan (sp?) in my Amazon wishlist.

Have you read the essay on this meme I linked to in thsi thread?: link
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:15:49

This is the Crossan book link.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby PolestaR » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:37:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') love studying the history of Christianity, Lokutus. :) You might enjoy the books of Elaine Pagels, considered to be one of the world's top experts on very early Christianity. I strongly recommend her to anyone interested in Christianity, as a believer or nonbeliever. I like her "The Origins of Satan," "Adam and Eve and the Serpent" and "Beyond Belief." Also "The Gnostic Gospels." She goes into the politics of the times and how some beliefs developed from the political situation and contentious factions supporting various beliefs. It's really facinating. I think it amazing that Christians are willing to accept what some bishops decided was "real" Christianity back in the 4th century CE, when they would almost certainly not accept what a bunch of bishops told them now. So much of what we now think of as Christianity hinged on these bishops back then, and what was politically important for them and the collapsing Roman Empire. Virtually all of what we know of as "western civilization" hinges on those momentous decisions. It's very much worth learnign about.


That's a nice golden nugget there Ludi, I can't help but agree. All scientology and other "new" religions today need is a few hundred years of "confusion", like christianity, for them to be taken seriously. Of course christians who use logic in *some* areas and want to be heard by other logical people sort of miss the point with the whole faith thing. I'm surprised no one has mentioned some famous scientist or other figure who is highly logical and believes in Jesus. That's a common defense of their faith.

Anyhow, I think we should be thankful for christians, they helped bring the peak earlier and will also be a pushover for doomers post collapse. Going to be funny seeing the christians tying the soon to be "end times" into revelations somehow. After all 90% of the population can't die without Judgement day occurring, the bible didn't predict it.
Last edited by PolestaR on Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:51:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:45:27

I used to be a deeply devout Christian myself, so I can't slam them too hard. And I obviously still have a soft spot in my heart for the religion, or I should say, for Jesus. :)

I think it's important for atheists or anti-apologists to have as much knowledge as possible about the history and beliefs of Christianity, otherwise, their arguments are weak. Likewise, Christian apologists would do well to know more about their own religion, its history and development. I'm only an amateur, and not even a Christian anymore, but I find myself more knowlegable about the Bible and much of Christianity than most practicing Christians I meet who are "preachin' it." They would be more convincing with more knowledge, I think, or to eschew argument altogether and stick with simply witnessing to the power of the religion in their own lives.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:51:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') used to be a deeply devout Christian myself, so I can't slam them too hard. And I obviously still have a soft spot in my heart for the religion, or I should say, for Jesus. :)

I think it's important for atheists or anti-apologists to have as much knowledge as possible about the history and beliefs of Christianity, otherwise, their arguments are weak. Likewise, Christian apologists would do well to know more about their own religion, its history and development. I'm only an amateur, and not even a Christian anymore, but I find myself more knowlegable about the Bible and much of Christianity than most practicing Christians I meet who are "preachin' it." They would be more convincing with more knowledge, I think, or to eschew argument altogether and stick with simply witnessing to the power of the religion in their own lives.


So what led you away from the flock?
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 21:58:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'S')o what led you away from the flock?


Initially, that I was unable to distinguish Christians from non-Christians - I was unable to find any Christians who adhered even superficially to the teachings of Jesus. I found the religion null and void because it did not transform people in the way it was promoted as doing. Christians are indistinguishable from non-Christians in the way they behave, when, of course the differences should be remarkable. Jesus primarily taught about behavior, not belief. And in fact, much of organised Christianity is in direct conflict with what Jesus is recorded as teaching. Later, learning more about how the religion developed, the politics of it, only strengthened my scepticism.
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Re: Flood

Unread postby Lokutus » Sun 14 Jan 2007, 22:07:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', 'S')o what led you away from the flock?


Initially, that I was unable to distinguish Christians from non-Christians - I was unable to find any Christians who adhered even superficially to the teachings of Jesus. I found the religion null and void because it did not transform people in the way it was promoted as doing. Christians are indistinguishable from non-Christians in the way they behave, when, of course the differences should be remarkable. Jesus primarily taught about behavior, not belief. And in fact, much of organised Christianity is in direct conflict with what Jesus is recorded as teaching. Later, learning more about how the religion developed, the politics of it, only strengthened my scepticism.


Here's what led me away:

-12 years in a Catholic school :roll:
-The fact that there's no place for dinosaurs in the biblical account of history (this aroused my slkeptiscism in the first grade)
-Being told in the 1st or 2nd grade that anyone who wasn't a Xian would go straight to hell for eternity (including everyone who lived and died before JC)
-Daring to take communion in grade one BEFORE my first communion and not being struck dead by a bolt of lightening as I returned to my pew.
-My inability to grasp how a just god would punish all humanity for the transgressions of a naive unworldly young girl named Eve.
-The realization that the most devout people around me were also the most miserable (including priests and nuns).
-The concept of infinite punishment for finite transgressions is to me immoral.
-The lack of any corroboration for the bible outside of the bible.


I may have missed one or two.
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