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Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 16 Jul 2025, 20:06:00

What is the longest train in the world?
The export powerhouse BHP iron ore train, with 682 cars and a total length of 7.3 km.
Rail is the basis of every great civilization. Where the rail goes, there the nation's fortunes go.

Meanwhile in China.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SvPfg6RK ... ture=share
We're 17 years past the peak now and the 3rd World is going hungry and dark. We'll be next, we're well on the way in fact.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 16 Jul 2025, 20:07:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', 'W')hat is the longest train in the world?

Don't know...but I'm betting it has an order of magnitude more boxcars in it than you can count. You know, fingers and toes plus one.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 17 Jul 2025, 10:19:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '[')b]America’s Crumbling Infrastructure
None of this is really in dispute. And there are no ideas how to fix it.
If you have a weak heart I advise against watching the following sixty minutes documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoYYxs9OSUg

California's Hi-speed rail, 16 years later...
Don't worry, there is plenty of CGI imagery of what it "would" be like if it ever gets off the ground :oops:
The US is the world leader in CGI as far it comes to portraying future achievements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHk_F42RtDQ


Yes, there are many good intentioned projects that don’t go as planned not have the desired results. And this Cali HS Rail is a good example.

The general problem is folks just don’t understand the fundamentals. The Green New Deal is an even larger example.

IMHO the world finds itself in a hole we can NOT build ourselves out of. We need to learn how be happy with less of more quality.

But Cali is just an unnatural environment. The population is not suited to the situation. Massive developments, tiny one story bungalows, postage stamp lots. Better than a high rise in NYC I suppose.

Water, or the lack there of, will likely be the end of Cali.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 17 Jul 2025, 15:28:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')IMHO the world finds itself in a hole we can NOT build ourselves out of. We need to learn how be happy with less of more quality.

But Cali is just an unnatural environment...
Water, or the lack there of, will likely be the end of Cali.


Too true Newfie, happiness can be had anywhere, even in a desert with a tent and a camel. I think we forget that. I'm sure I could be happy with just a roof over my head and an electric pushbike, some humble healthy foods etc. I have lived with less in my youth when traveling and was happy then.

As for your comment about water in the south west, I just read this recently.
Relief from drought in southwest U.S. likely isn't coming, according to new research
by University of Texas at Austin
https://phys.org/news/2025-07-relief-dr ... -isnt.html

It's not a pretty read, but something that has been tossed around for a while.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 17 Jul 2025, 19:49:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', ' ')I have lived with less in my youth when traveling and was happy then.

And is your boy happy with an uneducated father that can teach him..normal Australian stuff? Certainly you aren't qualified to teach him how to rub two neurons together and generate a thought...perhaps he joined your local boys club?

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 18 Jul 2025, 18:56:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '[')b]America’s Crumbling Infrastructure
California's Hi-speed rail, 16 years later...

Trump Administration Officially Defunds CA's High Speed Rail
https://www.thecentersquare.com/califor ... 93f50.html

Image


Oh look, wasn't even an American design :lol:
Just one more broken promise...

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Last edited by theluckycountry on Fri 18 Jul 2025, 19:16:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 18 Jul 2025, 19:15:02

Rail, it's the key to future mass transit, and any nation without it will be stuck up a cul-de-sac in a cement SUV without a fill-up. All collapsing nations abandon their rail networks, all advancing nations improve and expand them. it's as simple as that!

Australia’s rail renaissance: a nation on the move
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Paul Comfort recently returned from a 10 day tour of public transport in Australia where he was a guest speaker at AusRail, the Australasian Railway Association’s annual conference and met with numerous national rail leaders. From that trip he brings this report. Australia’s rail sector is on the rise. Visitors heading Down Under cannot fail to be impressed by the urban infrastructure projects popularising train travel in cities across the country.

These new developments showcase the local commitment to investment and innovation, driven by leadership that is willing to look beyond its own region to gather international expertise.
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/art ... -the-move/

We even have electric tram networks.
Powered by Cheap Coal of course.

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 18 Jul 2025, 19:23:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')Image



Australia Is Bending the Knee to King Charles, Revealing the Power of the Crown
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 18 Jul 2025, 21:03:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n an April 2022 memo, Martin Oberman, chairman of the Surface Transportation Board, a federal regulator, raised concerns about major rail companies like Norfolk Southern, CSX, and others cutting their workforces to “bare bones” to satisfy shareholders — citing staffing levels down 29% from just six years earlier.

If you push a millions of tons of freight down a highway the road will eventually fall to pieces and need rebuilding, we all know that! But what is not commonly known is that the "Shale Oil Miracle" that was going to revitalize the nation's economy, did exactly that to the countries rail network. Trainload after trainload of toxic frack chemicals were freighted in and the oil was then freighted out, for a decade and more, on tracks that were never designed to handle that sort of traffic.

Trains Will Still Move Oil Despite Wrecks, Keystone XL
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hale oil's other hazards, however, have begun to capture far more attention. That's because recent train derailments have made painfully clear the dangers of just getting that oil to refineries... Today, the crude oil production boom in the Bakken shale region of western North Dakota and eastern Montana, which was expected to hit 1 million barrels of crude oil production per day in December, is helping to fuel an “astronomical” spike in crude oil shipping by rail, said Anthony Hatch, an independent rail analyst based in New York City. Railroads transported roughly 5,000 rail cars of petroleum products in 2006. Since then, oil shipping has risen to about 500,000 cars per year, he said.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that in 2023, about 3.04 billion barrels (or about 8.32 million barrels per day) of crude oil were produced directly from tight-oil resources in the United States. This was equal to about 64% of total U.S. crude oil production in 2023.


The second quote is a story from 2014, then 2023. And as the first show, railroads are doing little to improve the track. They haven't been rebuilding all those rail networks after flogging them year after year, they just do the bare-bones maintenance necessary to pass muster.

The reasons for derailments are varied and many, seized bearings is one common cause, plus wobbly old track of course. No money is being spent to bring any of it up to scratch because no money is to be had. Private railways, a disaster in the making. They should have been nationalized from the start, like in Australia, but the US mercantile way is profits for the corporations and crumbs for the populace. Always has been always will be. As go the railways, so goes the nation.

Image

https://nypost.com/2023/03/04/is-the-us ... ong-track/
https://www.climatecentral.org/news/oil ... ters-16946
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=847&t=6
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 20 Jul 2025, 10:49:20



Forum potatohead said something about...trains? Trains be good, trains be bad, apparently trains lead to degrowth in Australia? Forum potatohead complaining about something his King should take care of.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 20 Jul 2025, 20:11:37

Societal Collapse Is Not a Bug

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')iving in small homes built entirely from locally available resources and using manpower alone is not a fairy tale. However, it will take an awful long time and a lot of hardship till we get to that point… again. This is how the story of building one civilization after the other based entirely on non-renewable resources always ends, and it won’t be any different this time either.

After a couple of deep-dive articles on human energy consumption — and before leaving for a holiday break — I suggest to take a broader look on where we are headed as a global civilization. And while many argue that there is no ‘we’ let alone a ‘global civilization’ to talk about, at the end of the day almost each and every one of us serve the same globalized extraction scheme. Except for the very few entirely self-sustained indigenous villages and tribes scattered around the globe, many of us give our labor to feed the globalized human system with raw inputs (food, energy, minerals etc.) or working on and with technologies consuming those resources, turning them into products and services and ultimately: waste.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-168473626

As a simple example the author shows how Copper was once in abundance and mined near the surface at a depth of only a few tens of meters. Today the depths approach a kilometer and more and the grades are very poor. It's only the power of diesel and high explosives, made from oil and Gas, that allows this. Copper is important, vitally important in out technological world. But so in Gypsum used in sheet rok, and oil base used to build our roads.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow, if you consider that we still get 91% of our global energy supply from fossil fuels, and realize that all so-called “alternatives” (nuclear, wind, solar etc.) rely 100% on coal oil and gas to make, you start to appreciate that we are facing a predicament here, not a problem with a solution.


When will these depletions of resources affect us? Well they will never affect Elon Musk or George Bush, those and the rest of the 1% have a wealth buffer. But what about you, personally? People today take their lead from the television set and it tells them two basic stories. A/ There is a disaster coming due to climate and resource depletion and you need to do something about it, and B/ That you must go out and buy a new car, a new boat, take an expensive holiday and have a lavish wedding. All the very things that are exacerbating A/.

Any thinking man and women (and there aren't many left on this planet) can see the dichotomy in these. And a quick thought exercise, a mental extrapolation of A/ and B/, will show that at some point you personally will hung out to dry, as I explained in my post above. It's very unpopular today to point these fact out because people use debt to fill the gaps in their consumption and don't see the depletion process effecting them. But it continues apace I assure you. At some point these reserves of Copper and Oil, natgas and fossil fuel grown wheat, etc, will reach a critical low, and then the market price controls that have worked so well in keeping there prices down will break. We, personally, will see much higher prices, ones we can't afford basically.

At which point voting for a new party won't cut it, you'll want to protest in the streets or at the government building. But that will achieve nothing as evidenced in many third world countries of late. As I said above, no one listens to poor people, to failures, to those that through their own stupidity mismanaged their finances. It's why you hear nothing from the million odd homeless. they are too busy just looking for food for that day and somewhere to take a dump. they aren't going across town enmass to protest, they'll come back to an empty tent or a broken into car. A forget revolutions, they are very rare and require money to fund them or a military to back them basically. When the wheels fall off you'll be on you're own.
We're 17 years past the peak now and the 3rd World is going hungry and dark. We'll be next, we're well on the way in fact.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 20 Jul 2025, 20:54:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')When will these depletions of resources affect us?


They say there are no stupid questions.

But there are certainly ones asked that demonstrate the asker is an uneducated dimwit, and blathers on randomly while speculating so far beyond their educational and intellectual capabilities that it is just...funny.

In this case, about basic resources. Obviously the asker knows nothing about basic resource history. For example, it has been well argued that one of the reasons that the Iron age even began was because of a lack of tin in the Mediterrarean area. Without it...no bronze. So...something else came along. No different than what happened with coal leading into oil.

Even someone of average intelligence can learn little interesting tidbits about resources, it is mostly history. Of course there are always the exceptionally ignorant, you can spot them because they don't even know what "conventional" oil is, and when provided all global oil benchmarks in the form of a list for the entire world? They can't even pick them off a list. THAT is a category 10 full blown slack jawed silly ignoramous when it comes to resources.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 20 Jul 2025, 22:50:35

The latest Honest Sorcerer post above should be an eyeopener for anyone living down the bottom of the food chain, but consider this, it's predicated on "The good times" rolling on. That is to say that we have access to debt still, that the stock market stays relatively high so our retirement investments are secure, that most jobs still exist.

But not only is this not guaranteed, it pretty much guaranteed that we will see the opposite! After all the triggers for depressions are not as obscure as the mainstream histories would have you believe. The Great depression in the US was blamed on the error of the FED to print money when needed, that's ludicrous. The depression was already moving around the world, beginning first in Germany. Indeed the cause was a lack of money, but not money printed, but money people had in the bank or wages to repay the debts they had accumulated during the roaring twenties. The stock market collapse was simply the trigger that revealed the underlying problem, the same as in 2008.

But whether you believe the potted history or not the fact remains that the depression came at the end of a massive debt bubble, just like the one now in existence. What did the nations' lack back then? Nothing material. There was so much food they were dumping wheat in the ocean, pouring milk into trenches and piling oranges on ovals, leaving them to rot because no one had the money to buy them all. Money was Very Tight. There was oceans of oil underfoot, mines bursting with minerals, factories of all types fully operational and able to produce anything the people could want. forests of lumber and vast swathes of land. But there was no money to buy any of it, at least as far the many were concerned.

This time around there will be no money, but no oil hardly either. Certainly no factories making household goods. The mines are mostly depleted, the forests stripped of trees, and the farmland now in the hands of corporate giants that care little if half the nation starves to death. You think you're important? You're a number on a social security computer, a number on a bank computer, and an address, if you own one, to a local council that wants taxes. The next Depression, because there is always a next depression, will be very painful for the average man and woman. What use is a house currently valued at $500,000 really worth if you can't sell it and can't pay the taxes? If you have $200,000 in debt and no job? It's just something you may have to walk away from.

Have a look back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4F5gIWS_Is
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 21 Jul 2025, 08:18:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', 'T')he latest Honest Sorcerer post above should be an eyeopener for anyone living down the bottom of the food chain, but consider this, it's predicated on "The good times" rolling on.

Well obviously those stopped with peak oil 17 years ago, according to you.

So explain again why collapse is happening...and you can't even DEFINE what it is?
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 21 Jul 2025, 16:10:47

I don't know about Lucky, but a definition of collapse that seems logical to me, is when food fails to make it to the grocer. As long as that chain is intact, we ought to count our blessings for living in an environment flush with energy.
Yes we are, as we are,
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 21 Jul 2025, 18:44:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') don't know about Lucky, but a definition of collapse that seems logical to me, is when food fails to make it to the grocer.

Completely reasonable. A thinking person, asked a basic question on a favorite peak oil topic, easily answered. By ANYONE who has actually THOUGHT about the topic. Requires....a couple minutes to be thorough on explaining what is collapse?

Pipsqueak thinkers and parrots can't do it after years of posting...you thought of a reasonable one in...minutes perhaps? Just saying.

Here is mine.

Ice was once a luxury item. Unlike today, where it is in all drinks everywhere, you can buy it in a bag from a remote convenience store along the Alcan highway, with a portable generator you can run a small fridge/freezer unit at a campground if you' like....they provide electrical outlets there to do just that sometimes. Campground...with ELECTRICAL outlets...yes...it is true.

When ice becomes a luxury item again, something you don't just get everywhere, when the rich are the only ones who can afford what it takes to make it, that will be a strong signal of collapse. Because look at what has to happened for ice to no longer be available to everyone. People can't afford basic appliances, like a freezer.Or there isn't enough electricity to pass around, and ice isn't on the priority list. Be it because of lack of manufacturing, resources to manufacture, fuel to distribute, electricity available, whatever combination is required to take away this simple, seemingly ever present item from modern folk....something collapse like will be happening.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', '
')As long as that chain is intact, we ought to count our blessings for living in an environment flush with energy.

Food making it to the grocer is probably a step past my precursor. The good news, in the case of America anyway, is we are the world's largest exporter of agricultural products. Seems likely that given a choice, citizens would force politicians to make darn sure Americans get fed before we ship food off to others.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 21 Jul 2025, 23:05:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') don't know about Lucky, but a definition of collapse that seems logical to me, is when food fails to make it to the grocer. As long as that chain is intact, we ought to count our blessings for living in an environment flush with energy.

Well that is obviously the end game, off in some distant future. But today you have 42 million people in 22 million households currently receiving SNAP benefits in the united states? And from what I read, the government is scaling the program back. This is what I'm referring to today, those people and hundreds of millions like them, like the average people in oil rich Venezuela who have lost several pounds each because they can't afford the food that's sitting there in the supermarkets.

Supply and demand. Less money, less purchasing, less trucks needed to fill the shelves. Let's hope you're well heeled enough to avoid such a future.
We're 17 years past the peak now and the 3rd World is going hungry and dark. We'll be next, we're well on the way in fact.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 22 Jul 2025, 13:56:33

Zombie companies. Businesses that are barely surviving, generating just enough cash to cover operating expenses and debt interest, but not enough to invest in growth or pay down their debt. They are often burdened by high levels of debt and rely on continued access to credit to stay afloat. That's probably 1/2 the stock market companies.

Tesla is technically a zombie, Sears, BBBY, Macy, JC Penny, Door dash, Rivian, the list is quite long. What we need is a real market collapse and let them all go to the wall, write all that debt off the books lol. And the US government too! But it can't go bankrupt, all it can do is keep printing and inflating. A war, a massive way works. You can write off a lot of debt then, offshore debt! But the bulk of the US debt is onshore, 25 trillion or so. Ahhhh, interesting times ahead.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 23 Jul 2025, 10:29:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR11', 'I') don't know about Lucky, but a definition of collapse that seems logical to me, is when food fails to make it to the grocer. As long as that chain is intact, we ought to count our blessings for living in an environment flush with energy.

Well that is obviously the end game, off in some distant future. But today you have 42 million people in 22 million households currently receiving SNAP benefits in the united states? And from what I read, the government is scaling the program back. This is what I'm referring to today, those people and hundreds of millions like them, like the average people in oil rich Venezuela who have lost several pounds each because they can't afford the food that's sitting there in the supermarkets.

Supply and demand. Less money, less purchasing, less trucks needed to fill the shelves. Let's hope you're well heeled enough to avoid such a future.


So....no definition of collapse from the local parrot.

Not a surprise in the least....it only requires perhaps a minute or three to think of ones personal definition....but parrots can't THINK. They parrot ideas from what they READ, and in this case even that parroting didn't answer the question.

Back on your knee's and mouth open for your King Parrot, thank you for demonstrating that is all you are good for. Again. This is just too easy.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 23 Jul 2025, 18:59:52

It's all explained here. Take a few precious minutes away from your texting friends to see.

The art of mastering cognitive dissonance near the end of the industrial age
https://thehonestsorcerer.medium.com/li ... aef61cf6fc

"cognitive dissonance". That's the odd feeling in your brain caused by being a techo-cornucopian wind sock but having to see the world outside your door crumbling apart.
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