[Pops]

I guess 'strings doesn't mind his thread going waay into left field - it's a good discussion

Anyway,

Not that I think oil from food is a good idea but Pimentel could make Jed Clampett's oil well look like a looser! Wang Chung

What's t the hangup on EROEI, Wang says
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n any event, decisions on pursuing certain energy products by society have not been made on the basis of their energy balance values. For example, even though electricity generation has a huge negative energy balance value (2.3 unit of fossil energy input for a unit of electric energy output in the US), society never questions the practice of electricity generation. The quality of energy products is a critical factor in making choice of energy products.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', ' ')No one ever taught you the fundamental relationship between 'money' and 'energy'. Don't feel too bad tho'; most people are similarly ignorant.

This explains much...

[jbrovont]

If you don't understand how EROEI affects the economics of an operation then you obviously don't understand the basics of economics *or* energy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', '
')If a system spends more energy than it earns, ultimately, it stops. That's it. That's the whole Energy Return on Energy Investment concept.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')I have no idea where you concluded that electricity is a net energy looser. That seems pretty dumb to me. I would have to see that study.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbrovont', 'I')f you don't understand how EROEI affects the economics of an operation then you obviously don't understand the basics of economics *or* energy.

[vtsnowedin]

Those that harp on a BTU is a BTU miss the fact that not all energy supplies can be used in every way. If you need to burn a hundred tons of coal to pump out one ton of jet fuel to fill a B2 bomber you have a negative eroei but would the military care? 2.5 BTUs of coal to get 1 BTU of electricity delivered to your house at the flip of a switch? What a bargain. If you had a ton of coal sitting in the driveway how would you get it to run the TV or the computer?

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Or should I say triple dumb. This kind of thinking is symptomatic of isolated pampered suburbanites who have never been near industry nor agriculture.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '8')) Those that harp on a BTU is a BTU miss the fact that not all energy supplies can be used in every way.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')How'd that turn out in 2008 when the price of oil went through the roof?

[Nefarious]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')It is not that hard to measure eroei. It is really a very simple method but takes some research and a lot of data.

One measures all the energy inputs into an energy gathering system. In the case of pretroleum production that means measuring the diesel, gasoline, and electricity to drill and complete a well and the collection system. It also means the measuring and amortizing (across the assumed depreciated life of the equipment and the total assumed production) the embodied energy in the casing, valves, pipes, GOSP, and refinery etc.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', ' ')I simply examine the variables and take measured steps, using only the concept that distance from work matters, vehicle choices matter, as does insulating a house. Mitigating the prices which some equate to "millions suffering" is in most cases nothing more than planning a lifestyle with minimum energy useage in mind and nothing more.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonsense', ' ')I simply examine the variables and take measured steps, using only the concept that distance from work matters, vehicle choices matter, as does insulating a house. Mitigating the prices which some equate to "millions suffering" is in most cases nothing more than planning a lifestyle with minimum energy useage in mind and nothing more.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')Now tell me one more thing, -sense. Why would I ever want to respond to you?

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '
')
My point is not about the inequity and injustice in the world. My point is that your contention that we will experience a seamless transition away from oil...

is utter nonsense.

Try talking to someone outside your happy little bubble world.

[Voice_du_More]

The facts are as plain as the graph shown just a few posts ago. There is no chance of producing over 85 mbpd of oil at anything under $70 per barrel. The only reason oil is even as low as $70 is that the world economy crashed after the massive price spike. Now alot of bad financial judgment along the way was part of all that but clearly oil is the bad apple here. If we had exponentially growing supplies of oil ahead of demand price would be low and stay low and there would be lots of expectation of future growth to pay of the debt bubble. But, as that is clearly not true, all societies that depend on oil for anything other than storing fossilized mammoths are about to find themselves without light, heat, food, clothing, housing, and civil order for most of their citizens.

I admit that is a hard peak scenario, but I really do not see any evidence at all to suggest that the world is doing just fine since peak. The obvious conclusion is that the world economy is in the toilet and unless oil supplies suddenly start growing very quickly the whole thing is going to get flushed within 24 months.

I still expect a price spike this fall as the dollar starts fading fast and a gold bubble develops. Next spring is when I expect the next super spike (due to a sudden realization that oil supply has in fact peaked) and that one will send the US over the precipice into a full blown depression with unemployment rising into the low 20's percentile-wise. The reason this has to happen is we built this city on credit and the loans cannot get paid if there is no cheap oil to fund continued growth and borrowing against the future. The indians have already realized that this wagon train does not have any tobacco or liquor in it and they don't find the women we brought along very attractive. Forgive me by brothers of the Great Spirit, its just a poignant analogy.

The end is near, the end is very near. Anyone who finds this site would be well advised to stock up on food and supplies for at least 12 months but that is not all. You need to have a plan for surviving without electricity, without running water, without grocery stores....

I'm not kidding. You need to have some kind of contingency and while you are building that plan be sure to get out of debt as fast as you can. You do not want to be a debtor when it comes time to round up the sheeple for work details.

The American nation is bankrupt and our creditors know it. Very shortly they will call our bluff and the biggest collapse in the history of the world will begin in earnest. The banks have not dealt with their problems from the mortgage debacle. They are hiding millions of foreclosures to protect the housing market. Despite the downturn in demand the dollar has continued to leak. A major downturn is just around the corner and gold is trying to signal that right now.

All you deniers are fools. Don't anyone who comes here say you were not warned! This site did not cause the catastrophe you are about to see. Quite the opposite, it has been a help to so many who have come here offering fellowship and much sound advice and analysis for those who, for whatever reason, have been awakened to the doom that is peak oil.

May God have mercy on our souls.