[heyhoser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I think many people on these boards are scared they might have to get off their fat backsides and walk or live in a less energy intensive way – we’ve heard all the excuses why they don’t do this, is if somehow that makes it alright.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I think many people on these boards are scared they might have to get off their fat backsides and walk or live in a less energy intensive way .

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('heyhoser', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I think many people on these boards are scared they might have to get off their fat backsides and walk or live in a less energy intensive way – we’ve heard all the excuses why they don’t do this, is if somehow that makes it alright.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', ' ')I think many people on these boards are scared they might have to get off their fat backsides and walk or live in a less energy intensive way .

[Ludi]

I'm just wondering, Wildwell, how you feel you have such intimate knowledge of Monte's life that you know about all his purchasing decisions. You know he has a sharp car, but that's about all, isn't it? I'm just not seeing the justification for giving him such a hard time.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')'m just wondering, Wildwell, how you feel you have such intimate knowledge of Monte's life that you know about all his purchasing decisions. You know he has a sharp car, but that's about all, isn't it? I'm just not seeing the justification for giving him such a hard time.

[threadbear]

Why not be an optimist? Prepare for the worst, but don't assume it must happen. Cover all bases. The best I can do is go with my own hunches, because it's hard to get a fix on the future from a purely intellectual point. And it feels like things are going to be really tough, but people will prevail and populations will be cut by choice and attrition, not by grim peak oil reaper.

[sampo]

WILDWELL WAKE UP! You and Monte are on the same side!

stop wasting your breath being petty about his personal decisions and heed what he says. he is sage beyond your years and has thought much longer and harder on these issues than you have. your optimism is only a byproduct of your ignorance (whether induced or by lack of effort in attaining knowledge).

You can't refute his message with blind hope. When you have facts, figures, and arguments to back up your optimism then people will tend to pay more attention to you. Go forth and get those things so that you can start to change peoples minds. If you keep approaching this the same way people will just hit the ignore button and your ideas will be only stillborn.

You keep trying to call monte a hypocrite, but the reality is that we all are. We are born to be. We were created by this machine only to exist within it. Change is so hard and that is the reason that there will be a die-off. Monte does more than most in his quest to spread information to enhance and further the enlightenment of people like you and me. I happen to think that he has done far more than his share already. It makes me feel guilty sometimes that i dont do enough.

NEVER STOP LEARNING!

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'I')t almost of if he's saying, well I'm okay folks, I have my ranch and nice car and I won't be using less fuel because of Jevon's paradox, so two fingers..

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy not be an optimist? .

[johnmarkos]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')Groundless optimism is what I'm complaining about, not optimism per se. I'm an optimist, myself, but I try also to be pragmatic and not count on long shots, miracles, or monkey butlers.

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sampo', 'W')ILDWELL WAKE UP! You and Monte are on the same side!

stop wasting your breath being petty about his personal decisions and heed what he says. he is sage beyond your years and has thought much longer and harder on these issues than you have. your optimism is only a byproduct of your ignorance (whether induced or by lack of effort in attaining knowledge).

You can't refute his message with blind hope. When you have facts, figures, and arguments to back up your optimism then people will tend to pay more attention to you. Go forth and get those things so that you can start to change peoples minds. If you keep approaching this the same way people will just hit the ignore button and your ideas will be only stillborn.

You keep trying to call monte a hypocrite, but the reality is that we all are. We are born to be. We were created by this machine only to exist within it. Change is so hard and that is the reason that there will be a die-off. Monte does more than most in his quest to spread information to enhance and further the enlightenment of people like you and me. I happen to think that he has done far more than his share already. It makes me feel guilty sometimes that i dont do enough.

NEVER STOP LEARNING!

[vegasmade]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')Well he thinks he knows it all yep, how do you know I haven’t been thinking long and hard about it, I’ve thought about these issues for over 20 years.

The fact is most of this arguments are skewed, not everything depends on oil or is needed for its running. My optimism is a by product of ignorance eh? What are YOU doing about it, what have you researched?

There isn’t going to be a die off because you cannot run cars or fly planes. For heck sake grow up why don’t you. We have renewables galore, coal for hundred of years, hydro and god know what else. The entire economy is man made, if even see people write ‘The banks bailiffs will turn up and repossess everything and people will be starving!’. What planet are you on? We’re already making enough renewable energy where I live to maintain a transport system. If you believe everything he says and spend your next 30 years in here in abject depression feel free. This is a classic case of figures being skewed to prove a point. Below I have posted two links on things that depends on no oil input or very little and have energy pay back times in a matter of months, perfectly modern, produces no Co2 and can be made today.


http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/vids/natur ... dband.html

http://www.tgv.com/EN/apropos/galerie/index.htm

Keep running your sports cars folks…enjoy the ride!

[Wildwell]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vegasmade', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')Well he thinks he knows it all yep, how do you know I haven’t been thinking long and hard about it, I’ve thought about these issues for over 20 years.

The fact is most of this arguments are skewed, not everything depends on oil or is needed for its running. My optimism is a by product of ignorance eh? What are YOU doing about it, what have you researched?

There isn’t going to be a die off because you cannot run cars or fly planes. For heck sake grow up why don’t you. We have renewables galore, coal for hundred of years, hydro and god know what else. The entire economy is man made, if even see people write ‘The banks bailiffs will turn up and repossess everything and people will be starving!’. What planet are you on? We’re already making enough renewable energy where I live to maintain a transport system. If you believe everything he says and spend your next 30 years in here in abject depression feel free. This is a classic case of figures being skewed to prove a point. Below I have posted two links on things that depends on no oil input or very little and have energy pay back times in a matter of months, perfectly modern, produces no Co2 and can be made today.


http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/vids/natur ... dband.html

http://www.tgv.com/EN/apropos/galerie/index.htm

Keep running your sports cars folks…enjoy the ride!

[Wildwell]

Here's round one and round two of what's being built here in the next few years, click on the speadsheet for the power output info.

http://www.bwea.com/offshore/round-2.html

http://www.bwea.com/offshore/round1.html

all approved, then there's tidal.

http://www.bwea.com/marine/resource.html

The power will be ramped up over the next fifty years to get to 100%

As we keep saying still a question of the hydrogen economy, it may be they will make some of that out in the deserts around the world. But Biodesel will keep enough trucks and tractors going and we can power the rail network, so there's transport. According to the soil association is country is self sufficient in organic produce. The indigenous population is rising here at just 0.1% and may shortly go into decline.

I don't want to paint an overly rosy picture, but I don't see die off.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vegasmade', ' ')A goal of 10% renewable energy by 2010 is positive, but small. What amount of power is currently being produced by renewables?

[sampo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', '
')There isn’t going to be a die off because you cannot run cars or fly planes. For heck sake grow up why don’t you.

[Wildwell]

1. 10% in ten years isn’t bad, 20% by 2020. It’s a start. What happens when all resources are used up? Some can be recycled, a lot is going to last much longer than anyone’s lifetime on these boards.
2. The entire rail system, including one of the world’s largest urban railways uses the equivalent of 340,000 barrels of oil in electrical power, about 650 wind turbines. To electrify the rest you would need 1,000 wind turbines or one of those planned off-shore wind farms – which are being built, it‘s not a dream. To reopen what we closed in the 1960s you would need another 500 wind turbines. The light trucks of this country use 6 million tonnes of oil, with efficiency you could get that figure down to 4 million or less, even less feeding railheads. Most of this can be made up with biodiesel. Therefore you have a complete transport network to move food and passengers about. In the cities this network is very extensive.

And yes there is electric tractor and horsepower if needed.

http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ ... ractor.htm

Before the 1950s horses were used to bring goods to rail yards and shunt trucks.

This excludes any breakthrough in other areas, but more than provides a network to prevent die off.

3. Look I’m not interested in the rest of the world. The US could become 50% more efficient tomorrow but they aren’t interested in cutting back and feel it is quite okay to drive 15mpg SUVs about even though there are 60mpg cars on the market. I’ve got on about this to the point of tedium.
4. London, Paris, Milan, and most Japanese and European cities have sustainable transport networks that can be powered by renewables. I’m so sorry in America it’s limited to the NE corridor, New York, Boston and Chicago. But you all wanted freedom of your cars.
5. 70% of oil in the US, UK and Europe is used by cars and planes, things that hardly existed before the war, please get a grip, they are not necessary for life.
6. No, the problem is not solved, it’s psychological. But 1) Oil will be coming out the ground for 100 years or more, same with gas. 2) Pebble nuclear reactors could supply a secure power source for 500 years. 3) There’s enough coal world wide for at least 100 years. 4) No one has any idea what might be invented in the next 100 years, it’s like predicting the telephone in 1750. 5) Climate change is probably a more serious problem anyway.
7. Look I could go on and on and on about this, sadly you (and others) have been reading too much of MQs doom to think outside the box. I’m not interested in backward US views, get on and lobby people to do something about it, we have 1000s of pressure groups here that lobby government, I don’t suspect where you are is any different.

For a more detailed breakdown on something similar to what I have wrote, see below

http://www.after-oil.co.uk/

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wildwell', 'W')ell first of all you insult people and patronise them, never a good way to prove any point other than you are arrogant.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he criticism I see leveled at him is that he is not personally implementing this plan to the extent apparently desired by Wildwell, that is, Monte is still driving his car. Now in the big scheme of Monte's life, driving this car might not be such a big use of energy if Monte has given up some other things he might have done which use lots of energy, like having kids. That might be his trade-off, car in place of kids.
(if I seem like a Monte apologist, I am! I like him. )