[dohboi]

"How can using 3 times the quantity in materials count as being environmentally friendly?"

Except that the fuel is free and non-polluting, forever.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'D')oes anyone here know what this bill say's?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '&')quot;How can using 3 times the quantity in materials count as being environmentally friendly?"

Except that the fuel is free and non-polluting, forever.

[Arthur75]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
dohboi I really really wish that were true, however turbines and solar panel's wear out and have to be replaced, and they are subject to weather/geological damage that also means they have to be replaced with newly manufactured systems. Every time they are replaced the clock starts fresh on how much energy/materials it took to build them vs any other power plant for the same output.

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '.')..
Yes, what is really needed these days is good reliable figures,...

[dohboi]

Good point, Tanada, but the fuel itself does still continue to be free.

And it doesn't have to be mined, transported, processed...disposed of when it is spent and toxic....

And note that in many places the wind blows more than one third of the time.

But again, we should be focusing first and foremost on conservation, efficiency and other ways to lower demand rather than always looking for new ways to produce mass quantities of energy to keep BAU going.

[dohboi]

I haven't seen many suggest that we supply all our electricity from wind alone, so arguing that it would be difficult is a red herring.

Solar in the summer provides the greatest amount of electricity on the days that electricity is needed the most--hot, sunny days. It can be distributed so the source of electricity is close to the end use, essentially eliminating transmission loss.

Massive efficiency and conservation measures, which we should be taking anyway, can greatly reduce the demand.

These and other efforts could reduce the number of turbines needed by an order of magnitude, at least.

How many cell phone towers are there? How many transmission line towers?...

Presumably odie would have said cell phones or transmission of electricity were impractical because of all the towers needed.

Poor odie seems to be going over the edge on this one, dropping the f-bomb and generally going apoplectic. Maybe a little cooling down time is needed before we continue the discussion further?

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', '.')..
Yes, what is really needed these days is good reliable figures,...

[Thralen]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'T')hrallen, sorry that your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills seem to be a bit...challenged.

From the article: "The total amount of allowances and credits cannot exceed the cap, limiting total emissions to that level. Companies that need to increase their emission allowance must buy credits from those who pollute less."

If you can't see from this that renewables, which pollute less, would be favored (in theory at least) economically by this, I can't help you.

Wiki is not gov, but gov is compelled to use human language which involves words that have meanings. If you do not understand the meanings of the words used, you need to go to sources that discuss those meanings.

A bit hard to tell if you are being willfully obtuse here. Either way, not much use further engaging with you. Best wishes working on those reading comprehension skills.

[Arthur75]

I admit being a bit lazy and not feeling like doing the research now myself, but reading this thread I didn't find an overall explanation of this "cap and tax" bill principles.

Could somebody explain it ?
Is it cap and trade ? (how are the cap values defined ? By who ? for who ?)
Is it more a "carbon tax" principle ? (at the well head or port of entry)

What is it exactly ?

[Sixstrings]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', 'I') admit being a bit lazy and not feeling like doing the research now myself, but reading this thread I didn't find an overall explanation of this "cap and tax" bill principles.

Could somebody explain it ?
Is it cap and trade ? (how are the cap values defined ? By who ? for who ?)
Is it more a "carbon tax" principle ? (at the well head or port of entry)

What is it exactly ?

[Arthur75]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '
')
My understanding is that it's a cap on carbon emissions. If a business goes over their cap, they have to buy carbon credits from the market (and you BETCHA goldman sachs and all the other evil banksters will be making a fortune on that carbon credit market). In theory, businesses that go green and use less than their allotment of carbon credits will be rewarded, since they can sell their unused credits into the carbon market (and then the speculating banksters add their profit in).

So the idea here is to become carbon neutral, with financial incentives in place for people to not pollute, and use less polluting energy (e.g. electricity rates will go up, causing the consumer to conserve more energy).

That's my understanding of it.. I may be wrong about the specific workings of this bill though. From what I understand, this cap n' trade bill is not international though.. the big cap n' trade scheme is the Kyoto protocol, where first world polluters buy carbon credits from third worlders.

The whole thing is a big scam though, nothing but a brand new commodity bubble for the banksters to get rich off. It only has support because it's appealing to two powerful groups -- environmentalists worried about all the melting ice, and the BANSKTERS who are literally salivating over the mad profits they'll rake in. So it's win-win for both sides of the political spectrum; democrats get to claim they've saved the Earth, and Republicans get to fill their pockets with cash from manipulating the new carbon credit market.

[deMolay]

I heard on the radio that the CapNTax Bill will have provisions for Green Building Inspectors who will tell you what you have to do to upgrade your house, and that it will control all new homes built anywhere in the USA. And that you will not be able to resale your home unless it passes inspection by these "Green Police". Is that factual?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I') heard on the radio that the CapNTax Bill will have provisions for Green Building Inspectors who will tell you what you have to do to upgrade your house, and that it will control all new homes built anywhere in the USA. And that you will not be able to resale your home unless it passes inspection by these "Green Police". Is that factual?

[odegaard]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Sixstrings', '.')..

How much does each windmill cost?

[Arthur75]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I') heard on the radio that the CapNTax Bill will have provisions for Green Building Inspectors who will tell you what you have to do to upgrade your house, and that it will control all new homes built anywhere in the USA. And that you will not be able to resale your home unless it passes inspection by these "Green Police". Is that factual?

[deMolay]

I would advise to get a copy of Ballad of Carl Drega and read it and pass it on.

[pablonite]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arthur75', 'C')ould somebody explain it ?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H').R.2454
SEC. 304.
GREATER ENERGY EFFICIENCY IN BUILDING CODES
(b) National Energy Efficiency Building Codes-
`(1) REQUIREMENT-
`(A) IN GENERAL- There shall be established national energy efficiency building codes under this subsection, for residential and commercial buildings, sufficient to meet each of the national building code energy efficiency targets established under subsection (a), not later than the date that is one year after the deadline for establishment of each such target.
`(A) effective on the date of enactment of the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009, 30 percent reduction in energy use relative to a comparable building constructed in compliance with the baseline code;
`(B) effective January 1, 2014, for residential buildings, and January 1, 2015, for commercial buildings, 50 percent reduction in energy use relative to the baseline code; and
`(C) effective January 1, 2017, for residential buildings, and January 1, 2018, for commercial buildings, and every 3 years thereafter, respectively, through January 1, 2029, and January 1, 2030, 5 percent additional reduction in energy use relative to the baseline code.

[AlexdeLarge]

Get it through your skulls people! This bill has nothing to do with the environment. (Any reference to the environment is lipstick on a Pig to get you to buy it.) It is about Power and Revenue! PERIOD !

Obama's "Cap and Trade" Energy Plan Will Cost Jobs
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/07/obamas-cap-and-trade-energy-plan-will.html


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Uncle Sam I Am

Will you raise my taxes high?
Will you raise them to the sky?
Will you raise them an awful lot?
My life is already in a knot!
Will you tax every nook and crannie?
And every fart out of my fannie?
Will you tax me, Uncle Sam?

I will raise your taxes high!
I will raise them to the sky!
Yes I'll raise them an awful lot!
Who cares if your life is in a knot?
I will raise every nook and crannie.
And I will even tax your fannie!
Do you think I give a damn?
Get ready for taxes, I am Uncle Sam!!