[vision-master]

Like those private pension plans such as the airline/ automotive industry? How about those 401'k plans that are worth less and less. Private insurance companies, you don't think they have ways to opt out or screw their policyholders. Give me a brake! Sounds like typical republican thinking to me.

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'L')ike those private pension plans such as the airline/ automotive industry? How about those 401'k plans that are worth less and less. Private insurance companies, you don't think they have ways to opt out or screw their policyholders. Give me a brake! Sounds like typical republican thinking to me.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')However, entitlements have gotten way out of control and I don't see any way around the problem other than the obvious.

[musselj]

I find it funny that we have been forced to pay into these programs since we got our first job all the way untill we retire but now they say that this can just be cut and is not an entitlement.....I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!!

[clueless]

What I am waiting to see is when the economy does tank and people are having their homes taken away for property tax default , will the people revolt because the govt. didn't provide a well enough economy for the people to pay thier property taxes ?

The govt likes to take credit for the economy, shouldn't they take credit for the hardships also ?

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', '
')By the way, I'm a democrat. Being a democrat or republican has nothing to do with this issue. Both parties are guilty. The government can't afford to keep spending at the rate it is, so it will do as all other corporations do in a similar situation (yes, the US government is a corporation), it will cut spending or face bankruptcy. The argument between democrats and republicans is over which spending to cut. However, entitlements have gotten way out of control and I don't see any way around the problem other than the obvious.

[gg3]

(Clueless, were you looking for the word "sentient"?)

No the government is not healthy. "I can cut back any time" is the last refuge of every alcoholic in denial about their illness. How many people here know any successful politicians who declared publicly that they would in any way limit SS or Medicare? Anyone..?

Clearly what's needed is to means-test, starting immediately. If there is any rationale for SS and Medicare, or any other government entitlement program, it's to provide a safety net (remember that phrase?) to prevent people falling off the edge. Wealthy retirees are by definition not at risk of falling off the edge.

But of course if you suggest means-testing SS & Medicare, people howl "But that's MY money, I paid into it!" Mine! Mine! Mine! Me first! Me first! Me first! The last refuge of the lazy, rationalizing their entitlements any way they know how. Welfare queens and kings, all of 'em.

---

First thing we need to do is "throw the proverbial bums out." What the hell ever happened to Republican fiscal discipline? What the hell ever happened to Newt's Contract With America? The present crew are all about borrow-and-binge. Three something trillion in the hole. They ought to be tied to chairs and made to count out three trillion dollars in single dollar bills.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'C')learly what's needed is to means-test, starting immediately. If there is any rationale for SS and Medicare, or any other government entitlement program, it's to provide a safety net (remember that phrase?) to prevent people falling off the edge. Wealthy retirees are by definition not at risk of falling off the edge.

[Denny]

What happened to the American "can do" philosophy?

It is possible for such accounts as social security to be fixed up. It happened in Canada several years ago, after concerns were raised that the funding of the Canadian equivalent to social security was both inadequate and had been abused over time by government investing practices in which our Canada Pension Plan fund became an easy way for the government to float bond issues, at low interest rates to them, and poor returns for us all as holders.

But, the fund was actuarially examined about then years ago and the premiums raised but the fund was put on a more solid investment foundation, which has worked out rather well.

If a relatively small country like Canada can do this, I would think the U.S. could do even better as it has so many more lucrative investing opportunities. Certainly, there is no shortage of skilled actuaries in the U.S. either.

The implementation of social security in the U.S. was an essential element of Roosevelt's plan to increase spending and draw America out of the depression. And, do not forget that many European countries predated the U.S. in this regard.

To let social security collapse, or discontinue this program would be a very backward step for America. Imagine if we all feared the prospect of growing old without an income, we'd all be tempted to sock away everything possible for an uncertain duration old age. That in itself would trigger a huge recession.

[Byron100]

The issue with the "hidden deficit" raises some very interesting questions about the future of American society, especially in the post Peak Oil era. Not only will the Feds have obligations to the American public that they are unable to fulfill based on today's admittedly optimistic economic projections, imagine the problems they will have in an era of perpetually declining growth (or should we call it shrinkage??).

One thing is for sure, however, that the U.S. Federal government will grow larger (and spend lots more $$$) in the years to come, as they will have no choice. When there are armies of unemployed unable to find work, when companies are folding right and left, and the very foundation of capitalism crumbles into dust (which it will without a doubt...without oil, capitalism is doomed like nothing else), the Feds will have NO CHOICE but to vastly increase spending in order to sustain the lives of the American people. We the people will demand nothing else. There's not a single retired person out there that will abide getting their benefits cut, nor will seniors abide giving up their right to at least halfway decent medical care, so any idea of cutting these benefits will NOT fly - no matter how bad the deficts are. And when the Feds are faced with millions of the dispossesed middle-class who no longer have a job, and therefore no means to support themselves and their families, the Feds will have to fork out the bucks to those who need it, or else - you guessed it - no more United States Federal Government. Believe me, survival is a very, very powerful instinct, and there will be no bounds to what the Fed will do in order to keep America alive and at least somewhat together.

I'll leave off with this little ditty:

The magic printing press, oh what wonders it brings us...
Hail the mighty printing press, the almightly printing press,
the Bringer of all Wealth for the USA and the World.
Benjamins galore, oh the wonders of endless wealth,
Let the printing presses roll, let 'em roll.
Ever faster, faster than ever before, spreading wealth
Beyond the dreams of every cornucopian.
Yes! The land of plenty, from sea to shining sea,
the printing press provides for all, wealth without end.
Time to let the presses roll, 24/7/365, there is no end in sight.
Hail the almighty printing press!
Solver of all problems, now and forevermore.
Let the printing presses roll,
Let 'em roll, faster than ever before, let 'em roll
Let the presses roll, let 'em roll, let 'em roll...

B

[Tyler_JC]

My mother is a CPA and she just rolls her eyes when she sees any of the Federal Government's budget numbers.

Under the very basic rules of accounting, you can't create a new liability and then pretend that the liability does not have to be paid for.

Regardless, we have to take COLA into account.

The size of grandma's social security check is determined by the expected cost of living increase of that year.

If core inflation is running at 2%, Social Security will automatically increase the size of its payment checks by 2%.

However, if real inflation is running at 5%...the Social Security Administration gets away with theft.

Revenues would increase 5% (assuming that inflation lead to wage increases) and expenses would only increase by 2%.

If you plot that out over the next 30 years...the deficit in Social Security starts to look very manageable.

Medicare on the other hand is utterly hopeless.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'M')y mother is a CPA and she just rolls her eyes when she sees any of the Federal Government's budget numbers.

Under the very basic rules of accounting, you can't create a new liability and then pretend that the liability does not have to be paid for.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Exactly.
How many dollars do we reaaly have?
Trillions?
Qadrillions?
Any idea correct up to order of magnitude?
What does it mean to US/world economy?
Do we need more/less of them?

[TorrKing]

From what I know your government has stopped publishing the number of dollars that are printed. So I guess, noone in the public really knows anymore.

Torjus Gaaren

[gego]

What do you mean by dollars? Do you mean these rectangular green and grey peices of paper we carry in our wallets and purses? If you mean these, then there are somewhere around $760 billion floating around.

These are actually bills of credit printed by the US treasury, but issued by the Federal Reserve Bank (FED). They are promises to pay (debts) of the FED, and are declared legal tender by the US government. If you took one of these to the FED and ask them to pay up, they would laugh at you since they are really promises to pay nothing, i.e., they are backed by nothing but the general assets of the FED. The general assets of the FED consist mostly of US government debts, debts of other banks, and supposedly some gold in Fort Knox. If you want something of value for your paper "dollars", then you must spend them which is sort of like passing the hot potato on to the next guy.

If you mean the money supply, rather than just the currency component of it, then there are different definitions. What it boils down to is, "How much of the debts of banks do you want to count?" All the money, except for the minor amount of coins in circulation, is bank debt. The Federal Reserve notes are the debts of the FED; your checking account is the debt of your bank; your savings account and certificates of deposits are the debts of your bank. If you want to stop here the total is in the neighborhood of $6.3 trillion.

Note that I used "$" in front of these numbers, but technically, I think this is incorrect since the dollar sign represents US dollars, and technically there are no US dollars in circulation, just bank debts, so the real answer to your question is zero.

[the_red_pill]

I would say NONE in a few years, unless you have moved your fiat currency into tangible assets, like land, silver and gold.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('the_red_pill', 'I') would say NONE in a few years, unless you have moved your fiat currency into tangible assets, like land, silver and gold.

[Pretorian]

gego, great post. I was told FED pays nominal value of notes to the US treasury-- what do u know about it?

[JoeCoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'F')rom what I know your government has stopped publishing the number of dollars that are printed. So I guess, noone in the public really knows anymore.

[mortifiedpenguin]

...it's a simple question with a simple answer. I swear. Either give a simple estimated number, or just say, "We don't know."

I realize peak oil is a serious problem, but the people on this website are absolutely batshit insane.

"I would say NONE in a few years, unless you have moved your fiat currency into tangible assets, like land, silver and gold."

This is what I'm talking about. And people buy into this horseshit. I swear...