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THE Sugar Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby lorenzo » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 14:06:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Sugar, Not Oil or Stocks, May Be Best Investment (Update1)

March 20 (Bloomberg) -- Sugar, the best-performing commodity the past 12 months, may beat bonds, stocks and oil for a second straight year.

``Sugar could quadruple from here and it would still be below its all-time high,'' said former George Soros partner James Rogers, 63, who founded Lausanne, Switzerland-based Diapason Commodities Management SA, which oversees $3.5 billion. ``The rally hasn't even started yet. And the fundamentals are changing dramatically in a positive way.''

Prices are soaring as record gasoline costs prompt Brazil, the world's biggest sugar producer, to devote more than half of its crop to ethanol production to meet a goal of eliminating gas-fueled cars in four years. A drought in Thailand, the second-biggest exporter, and a 50 percent rise in Chinese sugar demand the past decade are compounding the supply squeeze.

`

Link to the article


This is exciting news, even big people like Soros (partners) are waking up to the biofuels future.

Not only sugar is up spectacularly, virtuall all tropical plantation indexes are very bullish. Both the Singapore Straight Times Plantation Index and the Kuala Lumpur Plantation Index gained 35% last year, on biofuels.

Troughout 2005, plantation stocks were some of the best performing on the Singapore exchange:

Biodiesel fuels Asia plantation stocks

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Meanwhile, on Bursa Malaysia Bhd, the Kuala Lumpur Plantation Index has far outpaced the Kuala Lumpur Composite Index (KLCI).

On the 40-counter Kuala Lumpur Plantation Index, PPB Oil Palms Bhd gave the best return at 42.2 per cent followed by Asiatic Development Bhd (28 per cent), NPC Resources Bhd (27 per cent), United Plantations Bhd (26 per cent), IOI Corp Bhd (25 per cent) and Golden Hope Bhd (17 per cent).


I'm no expert, but I think investing in plantations is a great thing to do, and there's still some time to do so. Interesting plantation companies are those that own not only oil palm, but rubber as well. Natural rubber will become a hot commodity too.

Just remember this simple fact: a barrel of sugar cane ethanol costs US$35 today, a barrel of oil palm costs US$ 45. You have US$20 to play with! So a huge amount of these commodities is going to be converted into biofuels - as long as they're cheaper than petroleum - and that's going to be so for a long time. All the while, they're being demanded by food markets, increasing the pressure and their upward trend.

Rubber's up more than 30% on a year basis.
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Last edited by lorenzo on Tue 21 Mar 2006, 11:25:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby Dukat_Reloaded » Mon 20 Mar 2006, 22:15:12

How do you invest in a plantation index?
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby Jellric » Tue 21 Mar 2006, 00:17:02

I agree with the synopsis, but I am wondering what plays are available for an American investor?
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby lorenzo » Tue 21 Mar 2006, 11:22:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dukat_Reloaded', 'H')ow do you invest in a plantation index?


You open an account on the Kuala Lumpur Stock Exchange http://www.klse.com.my/ and you start trading.
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby Pique » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 18:25:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am wondering what plays are available for an American investor?


Easy, just do what Jim Rogers did: buy up a bunch of sugar plantations. Oh wait, that's step two. Step one: get a billion dollars.

I'm not sure how seriously to take Rogers' advice. He bought up sugar plantations while his employer, Berkshire Hathaway, was heavily invested in Coca Cola. So gains in Coke meant more sugar profits. That's precisely the kind of serendipitous back-door relationship that scares me about mutual funds. How do you ever know that the management isn't just trying to invest your money in companies in a way that benefits their personal investments? If I buy Jim Rogers' Diapason Commodities Management fund, is my investment leveraged to benefit Rogers more than it benefits me?

It's hard to know.
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby Pique » Wed 22 Mar 2006, 18:34:10

Or, if you go to yahoo.finance.com and click Symbol Lookup, and type SUGAR, you'll see a number of sugar companies. Most are international, but two are traded on Nasdaq. As far as I know, one can buy the international ones on Schwab, but not on eTrade. And nobody makes it easy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_code('', 'Symbol Name
DHSGF.PK  DHAMPUR SUGAR MILLS
ILVOF.PK  ILLOVO SUGAR
IPSU Imperial Sugar Co.   (Nasdaq)
IPSUW   IMPERIAL SUGAR WTS   (Nasdaq)
KHONF.PK  KHON KAEN SUGAR INDU
MSUG.PK   MAINE SUGAR INDS INC
MBSFF.PK  MARYBOROUGH SUGAR FA
NSSUF.PK  NISSIN SUGAR MANUFAC
RSGUF.PK  ROGERS SUGAR INCOME
RSI-UN.TO ROGERS SUGAR INCOME FUND TRUST
SSGRF.PK  SHINKO SUGAR CO LTD
')
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Re: Invest in plantations and sugar - says Soros partner

Postby DantesPeak » Thu 23 Mar 2006, 20:03:39

Jim Rogers was on Bloomberg Radio today and basically said the same thing about sugar as above - but he was generally bullish on all commodities at this time.

So maybe he is pimping his own sugar plantations a bit, but I have found his advice fairly good and reliable. There are not too many voices on MSM that try to give us the truth.
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Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby hoplite » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:28:05

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/ ... 4613.shtml

Pheeww!, I was begininng to think I was gonna have to sell my H1 AND my lifestyle! (I AM a technological cornicopian when it comes to this PO.COM doomer shit). I don't know that THIS is the answer but I'm sure it will be something like this...
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby rogerhb » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:33:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hoplite', 'I') don't know that THIS is the answer but I'm sure it will be something like this...


What's that phrase? "They'll think of something....".

If this does take off I hope they don't do something silly like price it in US dollars......
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby sicophiliac » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:46:29

Doesnt sugar cane have a better EROEI then corn based ethanol ? If Brazils been using it for such a large chunch of the thier liquid fuels needs it gotta be worth something right?
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby gego » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:47:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')
What's that phrase? "They'll think of something....".

If this does take off I hope they don't do something silly like price it in US dollars......


Ditto, plus:

You can also just take the attitude, "Don't worry, be happy."
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby shortonoil » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:58:11

sicophiliac said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oesnt sugar cane have a better EROEI then corn based ethanol ? If Brazils been using it for such a large chunch of the thier liquid fuels needs it gotta be worth something right?


Brazil has lots of sun and lots of rain. Sugar cane doesn’t grow worth a dame in Kansas!

They may think of something but I’ll bet that what ever it is doesn’t include us.
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby TITAN » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 22:59:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hoplite', 'h')ttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/eveningnews/main1454613.shtml

Pheeww!, I was begininng to think I was gonna have to sell my H1 AND my lifestyle! (I AM a technological cornicopian when it comes to this PO.COM doomer shit). I don't know that THIS is the answer but I'm sure it will be something like this...



The main problem is, nobody in the United States is really making a serious attempt at implementing ANYTHING like this. I suspect it would take atleast 1 year, probably 2 or 3 to really see any progress in this here in the US, and that's if they started NOW...

We don't have 2 or 3 years...
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby shortonoil » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 23:14:26

TITAN said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he main problem is, nobody in the United States is really making a serious attempt at implementing ANYTHING like this. I suspect it would take atleast 1 year, probably 2 or 3 to really see any progress in this here in the US, and that's if they started NOW...


Maybe some genius in Washington will think of something that we can do in the next 6 to 8 months - how about invading IRAN!
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby Concerned » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 23:20:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hoplite', 'h')ttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/eveningnews/main1454613.shtml

Pheeww!, I was begininng to think I was gonna have to sell my H1 AND my lifestyle! (I AM a technological cornicopian when it comes to this PO.COM doomer shit). I don't know that THIS is the answer but I'm sure it will be something like this...


Sounds like your clutching at straws or sugar cane in this case. Good Luck you'll need it :)
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby coyote » Tue 18 Apr 2006, 23:31:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CBS', 'W')ouldn't it be nice if, one day, we didn't have to worry about the ups and downs of the gas markets?

Yeah... it sure would be.... *sigh*
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby zoidberg » Wed 19 Apr 2006, 01:08:40

Plus a favored tactic is to burn the waste plant matter to power the stuff to make ethenol from the sugar. Essentially, plants grow and everything is taken from the crop and not put back. How many crops will that land produce at that rate?

This is only half a rhetorical question. If anyone can hazard a guess it'd be interesting to know.
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby Clouseau2 » Wed 19 Apr 2006, 01:43:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('shortonoil', '[')b]sicophiliac said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oesnt sugar cane have a better EROEI then corn based ethanol ? If Brazils been using it for such a large chunch of the thier liquid fuels needs it gotta be worth something right?


Brazil has lots of sun and lots of rain. Sugar cane doesn’t grow worth a dame in Kansas!

They may think of something but I’ll bet that what ever it is doesn’t include us.


We also don't have an unlimited amount of rainforest to burn down to make room for more cattle ranches and sugar cane plantations.

Oh wait, Brazil doesn't have that either ...

Actually, according to a recent article, the United States produces more ethanol than Brazil now ... Of course the process is petrochemicals + land == ethanol
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Re: Sugar cane saves the day (and the world economy)

Postby Gazzatrone » Wed 19 Apr 2006, 04:38:30

Nice idea in theory but.

1) The dilemma of using land to grow food or land to grow energy. Who's going to be around to use all this ethanol when they've all died of hunger?

2) The mass drive to either convert "regular" cars in order for them to run on ethanol, or switch factory production to making solely cars using ethanol. Consider it has taken 100 years of motoring to get us to this point. With the current cost of base metals I think you are looking at a cost of the production of a new vehicle being so in terms of research and development, that car companies would refuse to change.

3) Will growth be fast enough to produce what would be in ten years time a world demand of in the region of 100mbpd. I don't think so. (see point one)

These ideas work well on small single country scale that have the oppurtunity of growing a resource. But that is the point. Not everywhere can grow sugar cane and we create a new system Peak Land.

The inability to maintain sustainable growth usinng a finite resource i.e Land
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