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THE Socialism Thread pt 2 (merged)

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:46:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', ' ')But I don't see socialism as the same as fascism.

Isn't socialism the care for people by the state, whereas fascism is control of the state by corporations?


No. Your definition is wrong.

Remember, the Nazis, who popularized the concept of "fascism," were the national socialist party of germany.

Socialism is ownership of the means of production by the state, which controls and plans the economy.

Fascism is the same thing, but with the added element of fierce nationalism.

Many definitions of "fascism" include the notion of "dictator," but that's completely incorrect.

Hitler was voted into power. He was no more of a dictator than is Bush the 3rd.

Fascism is a type of socialism, like the Nazis suggested.

Don't confuse "socialism" with "doing good."

Oh no. Socialism is about who controls the means of production. That's it.


It's one thing to be dumb, but another thing to advertise it. But that's what paddling GOP talking points will get you.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 08:48:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')itler was voted into power. He was no more of a dictator than is Bush the 3rd.


While he was voted into power, that doesn't mean that he wasn't a dictator. He was in power for twelve years so it's inaccurate to describe all of those years of his being in power by his ascent to that position. He was a dictator though. Obama, OTOH, is not a dictator as he still has to compete with the Congress and Supreme Court who aren't always on his side.


Actually he wasn't, he was brought in by a brokered agreement.

Hitler was a perennial joke candidate, like Nader or LaRouche
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 10:58:42

Since nobody on this thread has the faintest idea what they're talking about, let me suggest the history lesson from "Idiocracy" to get you started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOg5WZrGTAg
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby eastbay » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 11:04:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')Don't confuse "socialism" with "doing good."

Oh no. Socialism is about who controls the means of production. That's it.



This much I'll agree with because 'Good' and 'Bad' arise everywhere. The point of the article is the inevitability that the means of production (including banking and insurance, etc....) will slide into the public sector more and more as Our Common Energy Disaster accelerates.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 11:18:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')ince nobody on this thread has the faintest idea what they're talking about



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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Bas » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 11:23:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')This much I'll agree with because 'Good' and 'Bad' arise everywhere. The point of the article is the inevitability that the means of production (including banking and insurance, etc....) will slide into the public sector more and more as Our Common Energy Disaster accelerates.


well put and indeed true. It still could lead to fascism though, if a country, not unlike the States, harbors enough nationalistic feelings and/or have enough people that dislike certain groups of immigrants or perhaps a religion. Still I wouldn't call fascism related to socialism, it's quite the opposite really.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Schmuto » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 12:00:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')ince nobody on this thread has the faintest idea what they're talking about, let me suggest the history lesson from "Idiocracy" to get you started.



Why even post here if everybody is an idiot?

Hitler was the leader of his party. His party was voted in as the majority party. It is arguable that he had the support of the majority of Germans throughout the war.

I know people don't like to see it as it was, as it was unpleasant, but the guy was elected/put in power by the democratic process that existed in Germany at the time.

By the way, you're a hammer looking for nails.

It's ridiculous that you got "republican talking points" out of any portion of this thread.

That's it. Hope you enjoyed the ride. Ride's over.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 12:37:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')ince nobody on this thread has the faintest idea what they're talking about, let me suggest the history lesson from "Idiocracy" to get you started.



Why even post here if everybody is an idiot?

Hitler was the leader of his party. His party was voted in as the majority party. It is arguable that he had the support of the majority of Germans throughout the war.

I know people don't like to see it as it was, as it was unpleasant, but the guy was elected/put in power by the democratic process that existed in Germany at the time.

By the way, you're a hammer looking for nails.

It's ridiculous that you got "republican talking points" out of any portion of this thread.

That's it. Hope you enjoyed the ride. Ride's over.


You're just typing random words in the form of sentences
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 13:10:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', 'S')ince nobody on this thread has the faintest idea what they're talking about, let me suggest the history lesson from "Idiocracy" to get you started.



Why even post here if everybody is an idiot?

Hitler was the leader of his party. His party was voted in as the majority party. It is arguable that he had the support of the majority of Germans throughout the war.

I know people don't like to see it as it was, as it was unpleasant, but the guy was elected/put in power by the democratic process that existed in Germany at the time.

By the way, you're a hammer looking for nails.

It's ridiculous that you got "republican talking points" out of any portion of this thread.

That's it. Hope you enjoyed the ride. Ride's over.


The Nazis never got more than 33% in a free election, so they were members of a parliamentary coalition. They weren't the "majority."

Hindenberg, who was dying, appointed Hitler to the office of Chancellor. He wasn't "elected."

Hitler then consolidated power with the Enabling Act, which gave him dictatorial powers.

It's significant to note that 33% was the percentage of the population that was willing to buy into insane racist conspiracy theories, or probably pretty much any other message packaged in the form of propaganda. Some things never change.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 13:24:31

Obama isn't taking us to socialism (i.e. state ownership of the means of production)---at least not so far.

The policies he has introduced so far appear to be the beginnings of state capitalism or corporatism more akin to the economic systems that operated in Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany, where the government sets a nationwide economic policy and exerts control over major corporations from the top by setting regulations and extending money with strings---the government control already goes to the extent of directly appointing and firing the leaders of "private" corporations (as Obama did when he fired the CEO and the board of GM and replaced them with his own people). The banking system is already effectively under government control, as the government is setting pay and loan policies and refusing to allow the largest banks to repay TARP loans and so escape from government control. And soon the government will take the first incremental steps on a long march to take control of the US health care system.

Are we headed to Socialism or towards State Capitalism/Corporatism?
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 15:41:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '.').. soon the government will take the first incremental steps on a long march to take control of the US health care system.


The health care system is arguably out-of-control, and so needs control somehow, from someone. The US spends 16% of GDP on health care -- over twice as much as the next highest (a cluster of Canada, Japan, Germany all spend about 7% of GDP on health care).

The system is clearly broke, and needs fixing. It is said by some that the US health care system is the "best in the world," but that is only true if you are rich. It used to be true merely if you were employed by a company with good benefits, but I think "Sicko" put an end to the notion that having insurance means access to this "best in the world" health care.

If you're following me so far, if not the government, who can fix US health care? The insurance companies? The doctors? Local governments?

If you disagree that US health care is broken, that's another matter entirely. But if you do agree it is wasteful, dysfunctional, self-serving, and inaccessible to a growing large minority of Americans, who do you propose fix it, if not the government?

I used to think US health care was the finest example of capitalism run amok, until this financial melt-down provided another excellent example.

I'm no big fan of unfettered capitalism nor unfettered socialism. It seems to me that localized, hybrid models have the best potential for seeing us through.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 16:29:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '.').. soon the government will take the first incremental steps on a long march to take control of the US health care system.


The health care system is arguably out-of-control, and so needs control somehow, from someone. The US spends 16% of GDP on health care -- over twice as much as the next highest (a cluster of Canada, Japan, Germany all spend about 7% of GDP on health care).


We spend twice as much, don't cover 1/3 of the population, we're less healthy, and we have lower life expectancies. We're struggling to stay in the top 20.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Bas » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 19:31:00

what better measure than healthcare to measure countries by?
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby vision-master » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 19:39:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'w')hat better measure than healthcare to measure countries by?


108" baby.

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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Bas » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 20:03:10

:-D
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby deMolay » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 20:24:14

I feel I can speak with some knowledge about the healthcare issue in Canada. In Alberta, one of the richest jurisdiction's in North America, the Provincial budget for so called free healthcare or socialized medicine consumes about 50% of the total budget. At what point do you start cutting it back or cut other programs like roads schools etc. Alberta just cut sex change operations off the taxpayer supported FREE healthcare and the lawsuits and yowls of the leftwing idiots became deafening. The age of entitlements is drawing to a close. Even the leftwing parsites must surely see the wall approaching, and they haven't even put on their seatbelts.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 20:39:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know people don't like to see it as it was, as it was unpleasant, but the guy was elected/put in power by the democratic process that existed in Germany at the time.


What you're arguing is irrelevant. Was he a dictator or not? Yes. Being elected or not has zero weight on the issue of whether one is a dictator. A dictator by definition is:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1') a: a person granted absolute emergency power ; especially : one appointed by the senate of ancient Rome b: one holding complete autocratic control c: one ruling absolutely and often oppressively


It's not a requirement for one to attain power by force in order to become a dictator. The definition of a dictator is just that you have complete power over a country. Hitler had complete power over his country. Thus, he's a dictator.
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Pops » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 20:45:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t may take some time for oil consumption to completely recover, but when it does, look out. This time around, financial companies were battered to a point where over three quarters of the industry’s value vanished. So what will be the next victim?

I guess the first point I would question is this assertion that oil prices caused the damage to financial institutions instead of their own fraudulent/unregulated actions.

I'd suggest the way to see this fellows leaning is simple, he talks about the "industry's value" instead of how "the industry" squandered stockholder/shareholder equity.

No real surprise he's worried about Mutant Zombie Socialists.


BTW, there is no real reason to debate the definition of socialism. We know he's talking about Dems, Pubs after all have better things to do than enforce regulations - the market will regulate itself after all...
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby TheDude » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 21:05:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'w')hat better measure than healthcare to measure countries by?


108" baby.

Image


:lol: Good one, V-M.

Agree with Pops about the cog diss in the author's thinking. He gripes about these boogeymen ignoring long term economic ramifications, when who was it that created the means for the major banks to visit this dislocation on us? If there was anything that needs fixing right now it's the electoral process, tandem with abolition of bribery in government. Pigs can fly, right?
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Re: Peak Oil Means Socialism

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Wed 22 Apr 2009, 21:36:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'w')hat better measure than healthcare to measure countries by?
108" baby.
Oooohhh... that's so deep. :-)
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